Talk:Ultra Magnus (G1)/2005 IDW continuity

Recent IDW revelations

Regarding what we've recently learned about Magnus in IDW continuity - including the content of the recent preview for MTMTE #19 - I'd just like to open up what's probably some inevitable discussion by saying that I don't think we need to do any splitting, or creating of new articles, or anything like that. I think the characters' history can all just live here. - Chris McFeely 08:20, 30 July 2013 (EDT)

In which case, how would we format the fiction section for someone like Minimus who has history before and after Magnus? Maybe a 'for more information, see Ultra Magnus (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity'-type note? Jalaguy 08:52, 30 July 2013 (EDT)

I wouldn't give Minimus a page, save for as a redirect to here. He has been Ultra Magnus for every appearance of any significance the character has had in IDW continuity, so this page is basically "his". But the original Magnus and the guys who had stood in for him can also be covered here, too, in what'll be little more than a paragraph 'cause there's nothing to them. - Chris McFeely 09:01, 30 July 2013 (EDT)

Agreed--we should keep things easy to read, and splitting this into a bunch of character articles would just be messy compared to a single neat "Ultra Magnus as a concept" article. Maybe Minimus will go on to become a character in his own right, and then he can get an article, but for now I too think he can stay here. --Apoc 06:18, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Maybe we could have it like Galvatron II and have him as the main, and the others under the suite? Escargon 06:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Is this true? My understanding is that either the original UM or - less likely - one of Tyrest's agents is the one in Autocracy and Monstrosity; we know those two happen before the Battle for Hell's Point, and the UM presented there is killed by Megatron. Magaroja 12:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, per the "fought alongside Orion" bit, it looks like the Autocracy/Monstrosity Magnus is Original Magnus. It *certainly* isn't Minimus, since the deaths we saw in The Gloaming were when the war was in full swing. (I'm for the split, if it wasn't obvious. Redirect this page to Minimus Ambus, put Original Magnus and a note on what happened afterward on Ultra Magnus (G1), and everything else at the names in question) - SanityOrMadness 16:40, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

This is a tricky issue. I understand the desire not to make too many unnecessary pages... but, just like the Galvatron/Galvatron II issue, we have (at least) TWO Ultra Magnuses in the same continuity. The original should definitely get a page, as he's a distinct, named character, and I think Datum and Suture should, as well (heck, Torque has a page and his story is not that much more detailed than Suture's).

That said, while the idea of combining Datum, Suture, and any other Magnus Armor wearers together on this page is not COMPLETELY unpalatable, I'm loathe to include the original Ultra Magnus here; he wasn't an agent of Tyrest, he didn't have any armor, and he wasn't trying to imitate anyone's personality; he was his own dude, and should definitely get his own page. Magaroja 18:04, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

I agree with SOM. The real Ultra Magnus, the one that belongs under "Ultra Magnus", is dead. Everybody else afterwards has been different characters, including Minimus, and should get their own pages. Mimi 04:15, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, the neat freak in me wants everyone to have their own page with their own exploits, but on the other, I wouldn't want to be the poor bastard who's just read Spotlight: Ultra Magnus for the first time, clicks through from the article and finds himself on some dude called Minimus Ambus's page... Jalaguy 04:27, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

Ehn, they'd be spoiled regardless of the article's name. And it's already happened with Straxus-Megatron in Marvel UK. Mimi 05:08, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

I am thoroughly against a split. It's letting pedantry get in the way of presentation, gaining nothing in the process. For all intents and purposes, everyone donning the Magnus armor WAS ULTRA MAGNUS. And pretty much everyone has done nothing NOT as Magnus that we've seen. I think that the IDW page could use an explanatory opener describing the Magnus situation, and I could see an argument for Minimus getting a separate page that covers his non-armored exploits... which Magnus's IDW page would also cover. --M Sipher 14:23, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

I think the Magnus page should have the original and info on all those who don the armour. After the original, 'Ultra Magnus' is essentially a rank or title. For presentation purposes though we could add sub-headings with which Magnus we are talking about and link that to other pages if and when we get any more info on them. I also suspect we will find out Minimus's spark brother Dominus was a Magnus at some point and he would be another individual whose own expolits deserve their own page. Mister Jazz 14:36, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

I think that given the way that characters are treated elsewhere on the Wiki, not splitting the page is unjustifiable for any reason beyond convenience, and that's not a compelling argument since leaving it as-is will also result in confusion. The problem is that Ultra Magnus (G1) has a clear equivalent in Autocracy!Ultra Magnus. The rest of Ultra Magnus' history is the history of an item called the "Magnus Armor" created by a third party. This isn't a Wiki of what the characters believe to be true in the story, but of what is true in the story. Moreover, I STRONGLY suspect that by the end of this arc we will have a new character, with a clear, pre-established name and history, donning the Magnus Armor and possibly even the name "Ultra Magnus." Then what would you do? That said, splitting of the article should certainly not occur at least until we have a new Magnus status quo.

I really just have to admire how thoughly James Roberts trolls the Wiki. Remember when "Empurata" was a dude? Anguirus 00:19, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

How will it confuse? The page up-front and clearly points out the history of the Magnuses, the did-nothing-elses who donned the armor. And most of that is a VERY short part of the article. It follows the bot(s) named Ultra Magnus point-by-point chronologically. You'd have to be kinda dumb to not get it, and you think splitting it up among a dozen pages would make it less so? And yes, convenience IS a factor, and a far more compelling one that rigid pedantry. We have ALWAYS operated under flexible rules.

And as for your hypothetical... so what? That character ceases to be who they were and become Ultra Magnus. We'd continue to chronicle the exploits on Magnus's page, and one could make the argument that we copy-paste said exploits as Magnus onto the prior-existing-character's page. I do NOT want to make people bounce around a buncha pages for no jsutifiable reason other than some people's OCD filing impulses. --M Sipher 01:47, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

I'm kinda with Sipher on this - I think Data, Suture and Minimus should have their own pages that detail what (little) we know about them that's not Magnus-related, then an explanation that Tyrest chose them to be Ultra Magnus and a link to the relevant section of this page that details what they did during about their time in the armour. I'm similarly convinced that by the end of Remain in Light there'll be a new Ultra Magnus, at which point that character's page should note that at that point they effectively became Ultra Magnus and link here as well. This page just needs a set of subheadings - "Original Ultra Magnus", "Tyrest's plan", "Suture", "Datum", "Unknown", "Minimus Ambus" and one for the dude who will imminently have Magnushood thrust upon him, naming no names ;) --Emvee 03:12, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

This page is about IDW's Ultra Magnus, so this page should be about what Ultra Magnuses did. --ItsWalky 03:28, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

"That character ceases to be who they were and become Ultra Magnus." This is not true in any sense whatsoever. Let's get to the end of the arc and decide what makes sense. If you're actually interested in avoiding confusion and centering Ultra Magnus on one page, then different sub-headings are required bare minimum. Anguirus 11:41, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

I seem to be in the minority at this point, but I just want to re-emphasize that I REALLY don't like keeping the original Ultra Magnus on this page. But whatever. Since we're keeping him here, I DO think it would help matters to give him a distinct section at the beginning of the page; you can insist on it until you're blue in the face, but he's NOT Tyrest's Magnus; no armor, no following any accords that haven't been written yet, etc. I would much prefer an organizational scheme with distinct headers ("The Original" vs "Tyrest's Enforcer" or something) than fully integrating his information in with the other agents as it is now. Magaroja 06:33, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, that is a very different dude who has no relation to the manner in which his corpse was mimicked for other purposes. Anguirus 11:42, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

I wouldn't say you're in the minority. Both sides have decent numbers behind them. Mimi 18:30, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

OK I had another crazy idea. If we decide that Minimus Ambus is the equivalent of "Ultra Magnus (G1)", I think that's relatively fair, but then we ought to have a page for Autocracy!UM called "Ultra Magnus (IDW)." The thing that really muddies up the works is not that UM once had a different name or that he's a teeny guy in there, but that there WAS a guy who was born, lived, and died "Ultra Magnus" in addition to later characters who wore Magnus Armor and masqueraded as him. Anguirus 19:42, 3 August 2013 (EDT)

NO. --M Sipher 03:11, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, this suggestion is pretty actively horrible.--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:24, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

If you don't like it fine, but if you aren't even going to give me a reason why you're flaming me I'm just going to treat that comment as a badge of honor.--Anguirus 01:12, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

I'm guessing it's something to do with putting the weird, unusual Ultra Magnus on (G1) and putting the guy who works just like every other Ultra Magnus on his own at (IDW)?

With regards to this debate, my two cents is that we either leave things as is, or turn this page into UM (IDW), charting the history of the armour, and put the original guy on (G1). Jalaguy 05:54, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

Well I wasn't going to elaborate because so many other people have already argued my points in a much more detailed and vehement fashion. But hey, here goes. Splitting out the original Ultra Magnus would make for a tiny article that doesn't benefit in the slightest from being an article by itself, and pretty much violates every practice we have regarding splitting out IDW characters (in that the original is the only one who is the same dude as the other G1 UMs). As for the rest? None of the rest of them have any real history when they're not being Ultra Magnus. At a bare minimum we need all the people who have been Ultra Magnus under one header, and conveniently enough that's already a sub-article. It doesn't need to move.--Rosicrucian^Talk 11:30, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

I appreciate the elaboration. For my part I thought this: "the original is the only one who is the same dude as the other G1 UMs", was an extremely important point, and why it struck me as unusual that Ultra Magnus' exploits would be chronicled on the same page as people masquerading as him, wearing what may or may not be his actual corpse. But that doesn't seem as important to everyone as it does to me, so I had a brainstorm. At any rate since the first thing I said was "let's not change a thing at least until Remain in Light wraps up" and I have as much clout around here as a one-armed ferret I was surprised that folks disagreed with such...urgency.--Anguirus 10:58, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

Just going to wade in here and suggest that while I agree about not splitting the page for all the various holders of the title, the Magnus Armor itself should probably get its own page, just explaining its creation, history, and functions (like the built-in recall feature). And anything about its wearers can just link back to the IDW UM page. I mean, the Armor of Unicron has a page to itself, and that was just a creation of the Cybertron dub. I think something similar along those lines for the Magnus Armor wouldn't be so out there, yes? SamuraiMarmoset 12:11, 7 August, 2013 (EST)

That's cool. Certainly a better place for those kinds of details. --M Sipher 03:37, 7 August 2013 (EDT)

We do not list The Razor's Edge as an appearance of Megatron, but of Flamewar. At the very least we should split Magnus from Ambus. The do-nothings between the two can be subheadings on a Magnus Armor page. My two cents, anyhow. RAKninja 17:17, 27 August 2013 (EDT)

No. --M Sipher 17:37, 27 August 2013 (EDT)

Pages for the other guys

Just to revisit this a bit... I think each bearer should really have their own page - but it should be (ahem) pretty minimal. This won't be difficult, since we know next to nothing about them. At very least, Minimus needs his own page - we don't even have a picture of him! For his fiction - we cover what little we know about his pre-Magnus life, then simply link over to the Magnus page. For the others, maybe mention the cause of death, where known.

The existing Magnus page is fine; nothing should change at all, IMO. -- Repowers 11:32, 26 September 2013 (EDT)

This is a good idea. --KilMichaelMcC 11:58, 26 September 2013 (EDT)

Can we get a navbox like that for the Five Faces of Darkness spirit guides (like at the bottom of the Primon page)? --Khajidha 12:26, 26 September 2013 (EDT)

They should, and it should be done this way. --M Sipher 14:33, 26 September 2013 (EDT)