Talk:Universal stream

Gone Official

That's right. Even Takara stuff is using this system now. Dude! --ItsWalky 14:41, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Wow. Maybe Ichikawa again? We assumed he was responsible for the material used in that World of the Transformers feature back in 2007. --FFN 14:52, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

I require links! - Chris McFeely 15:36, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

There are none. Peeps just know (people who can read) Japanese! --ItsWalky 15:47, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Well, then! I require... tacos! - Chris McFeely 15:48, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Here: From Here to Alternity/src‎ --ItsWalky 00:39, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Bulletbike (G2)'s tech spec bio has its own Universal Stream of Primax 095.0 Beta. Does that mean it isn't even in continuity with other tech spec bios, such as Drench (G2)'s which would presumably be Primax 093.0 Beta? - Starfield 18:53, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

It'd be in continuity with other tech spec bios from 1995! --ItsWalky 11:12, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

...wait. Does that mean the Allspark Almanac was actually written by Shattered Glass Jim Sorenson and Bill Forster? --Andrusi

Only in-universe. Out of universe, it was written by the non-Shattered Glass versions of us.--Jimsorenson 12:06, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Shattered Glass Jim Sorenson doesn't put billions of in-jokes in his writing, because he doesn't know how to read!--Rosicrucian^Talk 12:07, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

But he apparently knows how to write...? Maybe he dictates to SG Bill Forster.--Apcog 12:24, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks guys, you have now totally melted my brain. Dead Metal 12:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Is there a universal stream for TransTech itself? Or do they consider themselves above that sort of thing? I guess they'd be ### Epsilon, but they don't technically fit into a continuity family, do they? --Xaaron 20:06, 30 December 2009 (EST)

What is the origin of these names, anyway? We know how the numbering system works, and there's a note explaining where they got the name Quadwal (which is actually pretty funny), but what about the rest of them? - Arborday 13:33, 10 May 2010 (EDT)

Can't figure out the others, but "Primax" for Generation 1 seems quite straightforward. One meaning of "prime" is "first", and the -ax ending is just to make it sound cool/foreign. --Khajidha 13:43, 10 May 2010 (EDT)

How the System works

Just making sure I understand the system. If for example, a new animated series came out this year, and it was a completely new continuity family, would it be:_____- 010.0 Alpha? I ask because I'm working on my owned fan-based Transformers series (non-profit of course)--Chipmonk328

Almost. It would be: ______ x10.y Alpha, with x and y being the month and day the first episode was aired. If the first episode aired today (Feb 12, 2010), it would be: ______ 210.12 Alpha.--24.224.153.106 18:15, 12 February 2010 (EST)

The numbers that feature zeros for x or y come from continuities where parts of the date are unknown or undefined. The G1 Marvel Comics continuity started in September 1984, but if there was any exact date in September, we don't know about it. If the comic was known to have been officially released on September 13, then it would be Primax 984.13 Gamma instead of Primax 984.0 Gamma. Similarly, Bulletbike came out "sometime in 1995," and if it was even in a specific month then we don't know about it, so he's just from Primax 095.0 Beta; if he'd had a "street date" of April 13, then it would be Primax 495.13 Beta. And if we didn't know when in 2007 the live-action movie came out, it'd be Tyran 007.0 Delta (or maybe just Tyran 07.0 Delta). --Andrusi

The Greek

Just a thought. I don't know how the original writer (inventor) of the universal stream think, but Gamma is an equivalence to G, so it fit more to represent "game", while Kappa is an equivalence to K, which should used for "comic" ([ko mi k]). --TX55^TALK 23:46, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

Gamma's also equivalent to "c", if memory serves. --Jeysie 23:54, 25 June 2010 (EDT)

I think it was more a "c" is the third letter of the Latin/English alphabet and "gamma" is the third letter of the Greek more than any direct equivalence of sounds. --Khajidha 00:02, 26 June 2010 (EDT)

New continuity families

"Gargent—the Tonka GoBots continuity family. Xobitor—the, uh, Robotix continuity family." Does this mean what I think it means? --Khajidha 21:24, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

Japanese continuity

I just realized that with universal streams like Aurex 103.10 Alpha and Primax 787.3 Alpha that Japanese fiction has been canonized as part of the western multiverse. I find this both a bit confusing and, in the case of Primax 406.3 Eta, a bit unsettling.
Anyhow, this gives me an opportunity to ask how this works. "Primax 787.3 Alpha" is the Headmasters, and Headmasters is in continuity with a bunch of other things, like Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers and Car Robots etc. So is "Primax 787.3 Alpha" the Universal Stream for all of it? - Starfield 23:10, 26 July 2010 (EDT)

Sourcing

We probably ought to directly source where each named stream was mentioned. --M Sipher 23:27, 26 July 2010 (EDT)

G1 stream

I looked at the G1 universal streams and noticed a critical flaw. The G1 cartoon is missing. --LokitheGrammarNazi 10:07, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

Look again. It's there, dude. Primax 984.17 Alpha—the Generation 1 cartoon continuity. --ItsWalky 14:04, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

Wasn't there when Loki made this post, I checked the history. --Khajidha 14:12, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

That isn't a comprehensive list of all known universes, only of those whose designation has been given in an official source. If no such source exists for the toon, it wouldn't be listed. --Khajidha 10:09, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

But, come on, it the cartoon that everyone grew up with! I understand that even though there isn't a reliable source we can't put it in there (ignoring the massive amount of citation needed tags), but if we did wouldn't we put it in there? --LokitheGrammarNazi 13:56, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

I would imagine most Transformers fans haven't grown up with the original cartoon at this point. And, no, if the universe hadn't been called out specifically in fiction, we wouldn't have put it in the list. That's the whole point of the list. --ItsWalky 14:10, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

I'm not even sure what Loki was saying here, but I agree with Walky 100%. --Khajidha 14:12, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

I just meant that if there was an official source for the exact universal stream, would we put it in there. Case closed. --LokitheGrammarNazi 13:53, 19 October 2010 (EDT)

Streams listed on franchise pages

Would it make sense to mention the universal stream designations on the individual franchise pages? For example, "this series takes place in universal stream Primax XXX.XX Gamma," so you don't have to go back to this article to know that. --JMM 18:46, 30 June 2011 (EDT)

Streams as pages

Does each stream really need to be its own page? I'm not saying they don't, I'm just wondering if they do. I'd be open to persuasion either way.--Jimsorenson 15:19, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

I'm of the opinion that anything with a proper name deserves a page. Not only that, but it allows for greater elaboration on the specifics of the universe and how they're used in the fiction itself. —Interrobang 15:28, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Why isn't the information just folded into the relevant stories' pages? I mean, what are the odds of ANYONE looking things up by a universal stream designation? It's infinitely more likely someone will look up the 2007 movie, or even "Another Time And Place", by those names, than whatever string of nonsense words, digits and Greek that got assigned to them. Having these as separate pages is pointless and only makes that little tidbit of trivia LESS likely to be found. --M Sipher 14:01, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

I'm inclined to agree. The stream identifiers are, after all, just another name for worlds and stories which already have pages. - Chris McFeely 14:11, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

You guys realize it's impossible to have fiction sections with stuff like "From Primax 406.3 Eta in the year 2009, a Megatron attacked the Primax 903.0 Beta Alternity Optimus Prime..." in story pages, right? The story pages go over the story itself. They don't detail the actual universe from a fictional perspective. And some of those universes don't have anywhere to point to, Primax 109.0 Beta for example. Those pages are also a way to consolidate references to the universes; Primax 207.0 Epsilon is said to destroy a GoBot universe and the AT&P universe, but there's nowhere that says both in the same article because both facts aren't relevant anywhere else. —Interrobang 14:28, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

It's called the trivia/notes section. --M Sipher 14:36, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

I don't like the idea of having the information folded into the relevant stories' pages because the relevant stories don't typically use or acknowledge the universal stream concept, so putting it there would be awkward. It is nice to have an article written from the multiversal perspective. Notes/triva is an option, but the information is more than trivia, it is part of fiction. I like the way it is, but as a compromise idea, how about, for the universes that have an appropriate story page, we make a new section that is written from the multiversal perspective. Example: have a "Primax 984.0 Gamma" section on the Marvel Comics continuity page where it talks about how "The destruction of Unicron created an unusually high number of tangent universal streams." - Starfield 14:58, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

I'm starting to come around to this point of view, seeing how the articles are working in practice.--Jimsorenson 15:05, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

I could abide a "Role in the Multiverse" subsection of the relevant already-existing page. But a separate article just seems pointless. --M Sipher 15:08, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

But a lot of those aren't limited to one particular work. Primax 388.whatever starts with the Masterforce manga, but evidently involves the Zone manga, as the AAII puts Zone elements in it. Primax 109 was created entirely for one character in Alternity and is the setting for three stories. It's silly how you're insistent on not giving articles to settings and things that exist in fiction just because they happen to be a metareference. —Interrobang 15:30, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

It's stupid how you're making information harder to come across for a microscopic percentage of minor exceptions. For the eleven millionth time, we do not need a whole gigantic new system or re-work because 1% of something doesn't quite fit. Here's a thought for your Masterforce example... PUT THE INFORMATION IN BOTH RELEVANT PRE-EXISTING ARTICLES. Put the Alternity new universe IN THE ALTERNITY HUB ARTICLE. There is no need whatsoever to send people scattering across pages with thoroughly unintuitive titles for microscopic shreds of information that could easily have been put in an unobtrusive subsection. --M Sipher 16:57, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

Beast Wars

Where exactly would the beast era of transformers fit in? Would it get its own universal stream, or would it be in the same universe as the Generation 1 stream? Bookwormdalek 19:55, 25 September 2012 (EDT)

Beast Wars is a G1 universal stream, seeing as it's effectively a sequel to Generation 1.Jalaguy

The cartoon continuity would be Primax 496.22 Alpha, I think. --abates 20:18, 25 September 2012 (EDT)

Ok, thanks guys. So should we add this in? All the other cartoons have a universal stream posted. Bookwormdalek 19:37, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

Just the ones that have been officially labelled in some fiction or another, which that one hasn't. - Chris McFeely 19:50, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

Ah, I see. That's good, or else I would have probably spend the rest of the year catalouging universes for this page :) Bookwormdalek 20:20, 26 September 2012 (EDT)

Clarification if possible

Any word of god on how to classify in the case of say the G2 comic versus Regeneration One as they both originate from the first issue of the US comic which is classified as Primax 984.0 Gamma Indridcold13 (talk) 09:35, 8 March 2014 (EST)

Well, The Allspark Almanac II states that the one true future of Primax 984.0 Gamma is Alignment, which couldn't be possible with RG1. So G2 is the true future of it. Escargon (talk) 10:38, 8 March 2014 (EST)

Same with the other splinter timeline that continues from Marvel US but without Marvel UK, Classics -- the new continuation has its own universal stream name that's based off the date of its first story. --ItsWalky (talk) 11:07, 8 March 2014 (EST)

So, if I'm understanding this right, in cases where there is an original fiction (let's use Beast Wars), and two or more divergent fictions based on this original fiction (we'll use the 3H BW comics and IDW BW comics), the first published divergent fiction is canon to the original universal stream (Primax 496.22 Alpha) but further divergent fiction is given a new stream dated to the first instalment of this divergent fiction. Thus: Primax 496.22 Alpha contains both the Beast Wars cartoon and the 3H comics, while Primax 206.15 Gamma contains an exact copy of the Beast Wars cartoon as well as the IDW comics, is this correct? Indridcold13 (talk) 11:42, 8 March 2014 (EST)

I don't think those are necessarily comparable to the original example. G2 wasn't "divergent" fiction, just a continuation. Other stories would (much) later come back and try to unseat it. --ItsWalky (talk) 12:18, 8 March 2014 (EST)

It was one of several continuations already at the time, though. There was G2 US and Fleetway's G2 UK, neither of which followed up on the previous "final" story of the Marvel timeline, Another Time and Place.

I'd say that a universal stream only maintains its original designation so long as the publication / broadcast remains semi-continuous. So, Primax 496.22 Alpha contains the Beast Wars cartoon, up until it stopped broadcasting. Primax 206.15 Gamma has the cartoon + IDW comics, and Primax 977.18 Epsilon (or whatever) contains the cartoon + 3H comics.

Primax 984.0 Gamma ends with TF #80 -- anything after that (the G2s, Classics, ATAP, RG1) is a different Primax universal stream that contains the events of Primax 984.0 Gamma, plus new adventures. If on the other hand a divergence appears during the continuous run of a universe, then only the new divergent timeline gets a new universal stream. Earthforce split off during the events of Marvel UK, for instance, so it would have a different designation based on the first published Earthforce story, but the main Marvel UK stream wouldn't get a new designation at the same time. --Xaaron (talk) 22:51, 8 March 2014 (EST)

Eh, I've never really seen it that way, since if we go off that idea, Beast Machines wouldn't be part of the Beast Wars timeline. Plus as I already mentioned, the Allspark Almanac states that Alignment is canon for Primax 984.0 Gamma, and even though we don't put on it here, that basically confirms G2 is part of it. But whatever. Escargon (talk) 23:36, 8 March 2014 (EST)

Sorting within universal clusters

Would it make more sense to sort the lists on this page by the dates to which they refer, rather than a strict by-numbers order? It makes more sense from an out-of-universe perspective; as it is, the listing doesn't really make much sense. I get why you might want to keep it as-is, but I just thought I'd raise the suggestion. Riptide (talk) 17:27, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

Any chance of some more opinions on this? To clarify, I'd like it to be changed since the numbers we're sorting them by are essentially an alternative date format, but we're sorting them as if they were regular numbers. Obviously, it'd be kind of terrible of me to change it without agreement from other users. Riptide (talk) 09:29, 25 June 2015 (EDT)

Personally, I would find it more confusing and less aesthetically pleasing to sort it the way you are proposing. --Khajidha (talk) 11:37, 25 June 2015 (EDT)

Primax in particular IS getting to be a big, blurry wall of text, though. What about re-listing by both alphabetical and numerical values -- all the Primax Alphas by date, then all the Primax Betas, Primax Gammas, etc. That way, at least, if you know you're looking for a G1 cartoon or a G1 comic universe, they're all together instead of spread out among the various dates. --Xaaron (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2015 (EDT)

I have no idea how hard it is, but the Units of time page can be sorted multiple ways. That'd be awfully handy here.--Giggidy (talk) 18:53, 26 June 2015 (EDT)

Xaaron, we're well aware of the issue with Primax-bloat and are looking at in-Universe solutions as well.--Jimsorenson (talk) 09:14, 27 June 2015 (EDT)

"In-Universe solutions"? Did...did you just threaten to wipe out a sizeable portion of the multiverse, ending trillions upon trillions of lives, just to streamline a Wiki page? No man should have such power! --Xaaron (talk) 07:26, 29 June 2015 (EDT)

I think it's more likely that sub-groupings within Primax will be given names of their own. Like "Therion" could be used for Beast Era streams. Your post was funny, though.--Khajidha (talk) 08:01, 29 June 2015 (EDT)

Does anyone think breaking the list into subheadings for each continuity family would be a good idea? --Khajidha (talk) 09:45, 27 June 2015 (EDT)

Might also be handy to, say, put the main "Primax" ones (the cartoons and mainstream comics) at the top so people can find the ones they're more likely to care about. Or/and create a separate page for the other Primaxes - "there's even more Primaxes! Check LIST". --Charles RB (talk) 03:21, 4 July 2015 (GMT)

Negative Polarity Universes

Has the note about there not being as many negative polarity universes as positive polarity universes been invalidated/retconned by the revelations at the end of the club's existence? Or is the idea that we now believe there to be just as many (but the ability to travel "easily" between universes has shifted from positive to negative) pushing too far into "not quite canon"? --G.B. Blackrock (talk) 19:19, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

Yeah, that bit needs to be changed. Escargon (talk) 21:57, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

And a little bit more about classification

So we have "pillar" realities, foundational universes that aren't likely to be mistaken for anything else (Sunbow-G1, Live Action Movies, 2005-IDW-G1, and so on). We have the Great All-Encompassing Mess that is Toei-G1 and all the streams that split from and merge into it. Would there be universes that might be, well, not easy to put in a cluster based on their elements, and depend on how you look at them against the backdrop of the Whole Sort Of General Mish Mash? A possible example of such realities might be the War for Cybertron Game, which Hasbro intended to serve as a foundation for Aligned Continuity but Activision treated as Another G1 prequel. Or the 2001 RiD cartoon, which is Primax if people are speaking Japanese and Viron if they aren't. Basically, is it possible that a universe might not just be under more than one stream-identifier (hello again, Toei-G1) but also catalogued in more than one cluster if it is an "on-the-margins" reality? Banpei the Mini-Con (talk) 22:25, 19 February 2022 (EST)

Primax 610.17 Kappa. Particularly note that part about not getting concerned over the labels. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 23:32, 19 February 2022 (EST)

The part that hyperlinks to the Fandom article? How well Vector Prime knew us.
The methodology in the article isn't quite how I might have done it, but then again I'm not the TransTech. Anyway, while I get the sense that post-Cyberverse the stream scheme is being quietly abandoned, at the moment we really have nothing better (or at least nothing better that works in and out of multiverse). Some more thoughts (a little too off-the-wall for how this wiki does things, perhaps) and an infobox template (which might work here) were placed over at this link [1] recently. Banpei the Mini-Con (talk) 10:37, 20 February 2022 (EST)

No, not the link. The part about not getting concerned about the labels. As in "it's a thing that is no longer relevant that the creator of which has said was not meant to be taken hyper seriously and does not need this level of scrutiny." So don't. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 12:36, 20 February 2022 (EST)

Neither my wiki markup skills nor my article count clout are sufficient for me to consider altering any of the core functions of this wiki, so there's that. Proposals, I'll happily suggest, of course -- I do think the infobox could work to help all those numbers be a little more tied-to-story, but if the admins don't want another box, so it goes.
As to seriousness, I think the description in the link I posted (as well as one of the universes listed there) probably say it all on that front. The stream scheme is not so much, to me, a thing to take seriously as a thing that is useful. At the end of the day it's all stories about toy-based characters, though. Banpei the Mini-Con (talk) 02:21, 21 February 2022 (EST)