Talk:Prowl 2

What the fuck, Derik? —Interrobang 21:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

...do you not think Prowl 2 needs an article? -Derik 21:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't even understand what that was about. -- SFH 21:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Read, learn. -Derik 21:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Skimming the booklet, it looks like "Prowl 2" ended up as just a new body for Prowl, and is not meaningfully a separate character. It should probably be handled in Prowl's article. JW 22:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Amazingly actually reading the booklet yields a different result than skimming it. -Derik 22:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Given my apparent lack of reading skills, I would appreciate it if you would give us a summary of your reasons for creating this page. JW 22:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay! Summary follows:

He's a separate character from Prowl.

Summary ends. -Derik 22:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I took the time to read it more thoroughly. The Prowl described there is A) a copy of Prowl's consciousness, previously stored on a computer, plus B) a human (Chip Chase) in a symbiotic relationship with him, right?

Ergo, it's a lot like Powermaster Optimus Prime as he appeared in the G1 comics, who we don't consider to be a separate character. Heck, given that we still consider the Prime from Marvel Comics issue 80 to be the same character (a Last Autobot-empowered reincarnation of Prime, based on Hi-Q, based on Powermaster Optimus Prime, who in turn was made from a floppy disc copy of the original Prime), I don't think Prowl 2 warrants a new page. It's the same guy as Prowl. JW 22:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That would be a completely adequate explanation if we didn't have this guy and the original Prowl running around simultaneously, as different individuals, in two separate places in continuity.

And also if, you know, we hadn't actually gotten a toy called 'Prowl 2.' -Derik 22:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, heck, dude, if you'd said that in the first place, instead of being all coy . . . JW 22:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

...Isn't it implied by creating an article for him? Guys who aren't separate characters don't get one. -Derik 22:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The poop jokes and "I may be high at the moment" summary did not foster faith in your judgment. I am now reassured. JW 02:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Beast Wars Sourcebook heavily implies that Transmetal 2 Prowl is Binaltech Prowl in a new body, while Prowl from Magnaboss is the original Ark crewman in a new body. Yes, Ben Yee has made this a royal clusterfuck, but it's a canonical clusterfuck now.--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

WhY mY HEad hURt? -- SFH 22:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I know I'm only inviting a headache by asking, but... why is RID Prowl 2 in this? --M Sipher 23:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Was Binaltech Prowl actually called "Prowl 2"? --KilMichaelMcC 23:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The Blue one? I believe so. --FFN 23:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

What I mean to ask was, "was the toy was actually sold under the name Prowl 2"? The link to the Binaltech booklet translation Derik provides above says mentions that in the storyline the Binaltech Prowl body was originally developed to be a GT "parallel form" labelled "Prowl 2," but that plan was scrapped and that body became BT Prowl/Chip's main body. But was the character actually referred to as "Prowl 2" anywhere? Derik mentions above that we've "gotten a toy called Prowl 2"... but I think he may just be referring to the RiD toy, which he seems to think is the same character for some reason. --KilMichaelMcC 00:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, the toy itself was just called Prowl. I think Prowl 2 came from the BT storyline. --FFN 00:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I see nothing to indicate that Owl Prowl is the RID guy in Owl Prowl's IDW writeup. Small miracles. --ItsWalky 01:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

As a note, Owl Prowl's page should be moved to Prowl II, apparently, as that's how his IDW profile writes his name. Not with a 2. --ItsWalky 02:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Prowl 2 is the same character because he is the same character. From the BWTF.com translation;

At first, the Honda-designed BT-15 model was developed for this project to become the parallel form "Prowl 2," but because Prowl's original body was destroyed before the GT network was activated, it was decided that BT-15 would function as his primary unit.

Remember, in japan Rid/CR takes place during G1. It's cracked- but RiD Prowl 2 is considered a G1 character in Japan. They're the same guy. -Derik 02:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's what's confusing me: It says that the BT Prowl body was originally designed to be a GT-unit called "Prowl 2," but that that plan was scrapped and it became Prowl/Chip's body instead. Where does it say that the Prowl/Chip character was actually called "Prowl 2"? --KilMichaelMcC 02:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that RiD Prowl 2 is the same guy as Prowl II? —Interrobang 02:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

RiD Prowl is a G1 character in Japan. Hirofumi Ichikawa wallowed int he RiD/G1 connection for Binaltech. (The GT system was a reference to RiD's Mirage GT.) So no, I have no evidence that G1 Prowl 2 is the same character as the other G1 Prowl 2, other than Ichikawa going out of his way to note he was going to be called Prowl 2 soas to emphasize that connection in case you were thick enough to miss it.

(Am I crabby? Yes. But I've spent this entire page arguing with people who don't know what they're talking about, and when presented with links to information them skim them, miss the relevant parts and then tell me I'm wrong.) -Derik 03:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I was pretty quickly turned off to objectively considering your idea because you *started out crabby*. You do that pretty frequently, and I know I've pointed it out at least once and I'm doing so again because I think it's valid. I don't understand why you'd contribute here if you apparently want to be so unhelpful. Indeed, what really did your Prowl 2 page accomplish besides getting rid of *one* red link? (at the time, only the Optimus Prime page linked to "Prowl 2".) --Sntint 04:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a valid complaint. -Derik 05:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If you truly think it's a separate, undocumented, character, then it'd be far more helpful to not submit the page until you've taken the time to build it up to some degree of completion. Even if you *must* make only a stub right away, at least make it less... vomitous. As JW said, certain aspects of your initial article did *not* speak much of the article's validity. --Sntint 04:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But he has acid pellets! He's and owl. Poop iss inherent in the joke, and I'd be shocked if the tech-spec writer wasn't thinking it (and giggling naughtily) as he wrote the profile! -Derik 05:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, it's just not very clear what your intentions are at all when you preface things with "I may be high". --Sntint 05:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Which would explain my lousy section formatting, not the content! I write my best content high! -Derik 05:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Derik - can you address my question? The paragraph you quote says that the Binaltech Prowl body was originally designed to a "parallel form" called "Prowl 2", but after Prowl's original body was destroyed "it was decided that BT-15 would function as his primary unit." So if this body is now the "primary unit" for Prowl (with added Chip) is the character called Prowl 2 or was that designation discarded along with the original "parallel form" plan? --KilMichaelMcC 03:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure! Perhaps it represents a branch point witht he Binaltech timeloop. But Project Bodyshop survives the timeloop, so...

Look, he's a duplicate Prowl in G1. TM2 Prowl is a duplicate prowl in G1. Prowl 2 is a duplicate prowl in Rid... and Rid is G1 in Japan. Binaltech Prowl is supposed to be RiD Prowl. The booklet included the reference for that very reason.

So no Ethan, I can't produce a more explicit statement that BT Prowl is RiD Prowl2 than the already existing Hirofumi Ichikawa doing handstands in front of his lawn which he has lit on fire to spell out 'This is Prowl 2' for passing aircraft to read. I'm sorry- that's the best you're going to get. -Derik 04:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Derik, there is not the slightest reason to believe that Prowl 2 is a duplicate Prowl in RID. That's the part you refuse to explain, hence that's the part people have trouble with.

I'm pretty sure the Super Mode deluxes were originally solicited as "Prowl 2", "Sideburn 2", and so forth, and Prowl 2 seems to be based on Super Prowl, so presumably he made it to production before the change was made. That's still speculation, but it's much less baseless speculation than what you're presenting as fact. And I'm not presenting mine as fact. Chip 04:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Binaltech booklet explicitly referencing Prowl 2 isn't the slightesst reason? I mean- sure, you might disagree that it's sufficient reason, but you deny it's even reason for pause or consideration? it carries no weight at all?

When it's a discarded idea, at most it was author intent... at some point in time. You keep forgetting that part, even when we bring it up. --ItsWalky 05:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

What discarded idea? It says 'Prowl 2' on page 9 of the booklet, right there in plain kanji!

How is something that got into the finished booklet a 'discarded idea'? -Derik 05:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It also says "Optimus Prime" and "Prowl" on Bumblebee's finished TFU entry. Does that mean he's those two characters? Context, man. You keep intentionally ignoring the context. --ItsWalky 06:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little afraid Derik's trying too hard to be whimsical and funny. We're geeks, man. Geek humor has to be well-thought and without holes. When this can't be done, just stick to the facts. Scientific facts. --Sntint 06:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That would be a great counter-argument if "Prowl 2" in BT Prowl's booklet I highlighted wasn't referring to that character, unlike Optimus Prime and Prowl in Bumblebee's TFU Profile where those names refer to different characters.

I prefer my comedically disingenuous arguments with more Batman references. -Derik 07:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Quote Problem

I think there's a problem with the quote we're using ("BT-15 acts with all of Prowl's usual personality and will", etc.) If I'm reading the article correctly, that quote is from the text that Mr. Ichikawa originally sent in, but is not in the actual published booklet. Ergo, it represents authorial intent, but isn't canon. But, I might be wrong — the article at BWTF has the translation and the original stuff all mixed together, and is quite confusing. How does it look to other people? JW 04:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Walky just deleted the article without moving it over its destination, so it's moot.

I also think Walky forgets that 'Prowl 2' had a toy, for which this is a valid and official name, and if he'd prefer we work fro that article, 'Prowl 2' should be a redirect, not deleted. -Derik 04:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Prowl 2 should redirect to Prowl (RID). --ItsWalky 04:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But Prowl 2 isn't Prowl (RID). They are separate characters. -Derik 04:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In your personal canon, sure. --ItsWalky 04:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You know what I hate? That the Deluxe redecoes didn't make it out with the 2s after their names like they were in the computers, so we could all know that "2" indicates that they're the redeco versions and our infuriatingly literal-minded fandom could stop doing things like complicating this issue into the fucking stratosphere. That's what I hate. -LV 04:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

And 'GT' meant Grand Tourismo and represents Hasbro's myopic view that every indy car ever should be called Mirage.

Ichikawa makes stupid things suck less. I'm sorry you don't feel like keeping track of the details. -Derik 04:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Trying to sum up...Prowl vs. Prowl 2

I think I understand where Derik is coming from, which is:

Binaltech Prowl's info contains a reference connecting the character to RiD's "Prowl 2". Binaltech is FULL of many intentional references to obscure Transformers (and even G.I.Joe) geekery, so the fact that it specifically references RiD's "Mirage GT" and "Prowl 2" is neither surprising nor odd. (And as Derik points out, RiD IS part of G1 in Japan, so they're not just cute cross-continuity nods but actual viable in-continuity references/explanations.)

The main arguments here all come down to whether that reference means he's meant to be the same character as Prowl 2 or if it is just a "nod" to him. Here it is again:

At first, the Honda-designed BT-15 model was developed for this project to become the parallel form "Prowl 2," but because Prowl's original body was destroyed before the GT network was activated, it was decided that BT-15 would function as his primary unit.

The mold was going to be "Prowl 2" that much is clear.

Walky and co.'s point seems to be that while it "was going to be" P2, the death of Prowl (in TF:TM right?) scraped that and it became the primary just plain "Prowl" unit instead. Great. That makes sense. So in some alternate continuity where G1 Prowl didn't die in the movie then this *IS* Prowl 2, but in regular continuity it's not. Atleast not yet...

Derik (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) assumes that at some point when the real Prowl come back this Prowl became designated "Prowl 2" again as was originally planned. Possible, but speculation. Another possibility is that Chip-Prowl stayed "Prowl" and a NEW GT body was built for them and THAT body was Prowl 2 from RiD. Hey, it's possible.

Yeah, my connclusions from all this:

1)Wow, this is a royal continuity KNOT!

2)There's not "quite" enough evidence to say RiD Prowl and owl Prowl are the same guy. Close, but not quite.

3) There is a strong enough leaning that there MIGHT be a connection that I'd at least mention the possibility and explain it in the wiki. Explaining concisely and understandably is the trick. ;-) --ZacWilliam 12:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't in TF:TM that Prowl died in the Binaltech continuity - his spark actually got lost in subspace when they were attempting to transfer it into his new Binaltech body. That's what prompted Chip to step up and become the new Prowl.

I'd say the major complication lies in the fact that Binaltech is split off into its own divergent parallel universe at the end of its story, which doesn't line up with the Beast Wars timeline, and hence can't really be a part of it, but HEY, thanks a lot for not paying attention recent Japanese continuity developments, there, Yee! - McFeely, not signed in

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