Talk:Slipstream (Animated)

Spoiler in the Edit History D:

Is there any way to get rid of that spoiler I stupidly stuck into my edit comment? I can't believe I suffered such a brain-fart D: Magaroja 11:13, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Can we just call her Mega?

She hasn't technically been named anywhere, but since that's who her colours are based on... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.71.8.91 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 May 2009.

No. --M Sipher 23:03, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

I think there is a reason to not naming her mega nor naming the Liar Starscream Ramjet. It's the trademark; if Hasbro makes the toy, but they don't get the rights to the name "Mega", they will have to give her other name. Then, we have to wait and see. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 186.9.15.58 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 18 May 2009.

Apparently, she's going to be named in a reference book (the "AllSpark Almanac", was it?) - SanityOrMadness 09:34, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

Derik?

Source for "Slipstream"? —Interrobang 16:54, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

I dunbno. Some guy, I think he said his name was "Anonymous."

(Via the toyline pannel, a redirect instead of a move would be me expressing due caution with an unvetted source.) -Derik 16:59, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, live feed of the BotCon Hasbro panel coming in over at TFW2005 confirms Slipstream. - Chris McFeely 17:08, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Ja, I got it via 4Chan, but there were enough other people postign there that I figured it'd have been nix'd if the report was a prank. Nice of McFeely to confirm, it means we can move it now. -Derik 17:10, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Sexism?

"nagging harpy" "bitch" "tart" Does this wiki really want to endorse these slurs? The articles on Jazz and Blaster don't use racial slurs.

...She is a bitch. That's her entire character. Unless you wish us to use the gender-neutral term of "unpleasant individual". —Interrobang 23:10, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

I think it's a valid complaint. --KilMichaelMcC 23:18, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Yeah it's a valid complaint, but I agree with Interrobang on this one. Oh, we could get rid of every use of the word slag as an insult because it means whore in slang for the UK. We could use much worse language as well to describe her too. If you want opinions from the people who might see it as sexist, we should get the female users to give their voice.--AWT88 23:26, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

We're not using "slag" to refer to female characters as "whores," so your comparison is not apt. Also, one doesn't have to be a woman to dislike seeing the use of sexist slurs. --KilMichaelMcC 23:34, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Please define "sexist slur". We are not using "bitch" as a substitute of "female". We are using it by the definition of "unpleasant female", which is what this character is. Unless you want us to remove all and any indications of gender and sex in Transformers characters. —Interrobang 00:05, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

Whilst slightly incredulous that I would need to actually explain this, okay: Calling a woman a bitch is using a sexist slur, whether she's unpleasant or not. The word means female dog and thus applying it to female person is dehumanizing. When it comes to an "unpleasant woman," it is the unpleasantness that is the thing she is to be criticized for, not her gender. --KilMichaelMcC 00:23, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

Dehumanizing? Oh no, you wouldn't want the person you're INSULTING to feel bad! But that can't be the problem, as then you turn around and complain that it isn't gender neutral. Exactly what insults are acceptable? I should point out that I'm a jerk, and I therefore find the Sentinel Prime page highly offensive, can you get to work on sanitizing that while you're at it? - Cattleprod 00:31, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

You'll note that I didn't propose "sanitizing" anything. In fact, I didn't even address the specific use of "bitch" in the caption on this page. I was just responding, in a general sense, to the apparent question as to why bitch would be considered a sexist slur. --KilMichaelMcC 00:38, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

You are conflating etymology with definition. It is true that people used the word because it meant "female dog". That is no longer the case and the word's primary meaning is now "unpleasant woman". Nobody is criticizing the fictional character's gender. That is silly and I think most realize this without needing this explained to them. —Interrobang 00:45, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

Yes, the word's primary meaning is now a gendered insult, which is why it is often considered to be a sexist slur. At any rate, turning away from generalities and back to this specific article: The use of "bitch" in the main imagine caption could arguably be considered acceptable, in that given the context it can be read as the character herself embracing the term, rather than being insulted with it. However, as the original commenter noted, "bitch" appearing on the same page with "nagging harpy" and "tart" does lend an aura of sexism to the article. The "nagging hapry" bit, at least, should be removed. --KilMichaelMcC 01:02, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

We should totally change Skywarp's page so that it has lots of jokes about him being a negro. Negro totally just means black, right? It's spanish! It's hilarious, because being Black Starscream is his primary character trait. That wacky Skywarp, what a hilarious negro. Hooper_X 01:25, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

Am I the only one that doesn't get the "tarts" caption? - Starfield 23:49, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

I think it may be a Red Dwarf quote. There was an idea of having that as a theme running through the clones' pages for some reason. --KilMichaelMcC 23:51, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Right, that's from the Red Dwarf episode "Parallel Universe", where Lister and Rimmer met their female alternates from another universe. The caption was one of the female Rimmer's lines. --Professor Icepick 23:55, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

If it's on a clone page and it's not funny, it's probably from Red Dwarf. --Thylacine 2000 23:56, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Ironically here, the original question totally misses the context of the word "bitch" as it appears in the caption -- it's being claimed as an affirmative, in the way that insults are often commandeered by the recipients and repurposed as expressions of solidarity. See also: "nigger", "dyke", the list goes on and on. -- Repowers 00:52, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

The problem with all of these terms is that the deduce the recipient's eentire identity to a single element-- their gender. "You are a cunt, you are a tart, you are a twat, you are a bitch..." they all translate to- "you are a female, and not in your place."

Reducing ANY character to their gender is cemeaning, it means they have no value beyond their gender, and it's their 100% most importand definign facet, dwarfing any other accomplishments, goals, dreams etc etc etc. Sexism is BAD because it reduces people to simply male or female.

If this was Arcee's article I would not approove of this. Hell, if it was Blackarachnia's article I wouldn't approve of this-- and she's a classic "vamp" negative female stereotype. But this is a character who for months and multiple fiction appearances was known as "Female Starscream." And she is, in-canon, "Starscream's feminine side." She is Starscream + Female. her femaleness is all that distinguishes her from him, like like Liar Starscream's pathological prevarication is all that distinguishes him from Statrscream.

I'm still not a FAN of this... but Slipstream is one of the few characters where you might actually have grounds to justify it. -Derik 01:34, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

Anybody who sees Slipstream as nothing more than "female Starscream" wasn't paying attention. She's smart, competent, witty, sarcastic, intelligent, quick witted... -- Repowers 01:49, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

And so is Starscream, some times. Arguably, she's just Starscream MINUS his male ego.

But the original question was-- "is this sexist?" My answer is "normally yes, but female Starscream is a character who IS mantextually defined by her gender."

Mind you, i still think it's icky... Any of the 3 image captions is fine on it's own... but lumped all together they form an unfortuanate pattern--

1. Empowered woman identified a threatening and negative figure
2. Joke about reducing empowered woman to animal level so that she can no longer dominate men
3. Joke that reduces her to a barbie doll.

The last one, especially, is innocent-- the 'X is the new Y' is so common that it's been shorn from its original fashion roots, but when grouped with the other two it becomes part of an unfortunate pattern that locks it back into that context-- in a lot of ways the fashoin-obsessed female 'accusation' places an empowered female into a dis-empowering context-box. She becomes silly, and easily disregarded, and has no authority because hwo can you take someone with 35 pairs of shoes seriously?

It's a totally unintentional pattern, but it's there. And it's icky. And it sends messages we don't want to send.

Ditch the Red Dwarf quote. It's what really sets a negative tone. (I also feel like there's dissonance, where it's difficult to fit to the character somehow, so it sits awkwardly... but that might just be because I haven't seen the Red Dwarf episode in question.)

(Ditch the trivia quote too, we can come up with something better, this is almost random.)

keep the first quote. Bitch or no, it's her claiming power for herself, and it's the only one that really feels like her personality. -Derik 02:28, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

The Red Dwarf quote we have now doesn't really work anyway, so go ahead and remove it, but I personally really liked the Red Dwarf theme across the clone articles. Could we maybe use another quote from Rimmerworld or the parallel dimension episode?? On the other hand, I can't actually see how the Red Dwarf quote is making fun of women at all. To be honest, the quote isn't even directed at her - it's the female Rimmer making fun of the two Listers for being irresponsible. If anything, it depicts her as slightly prudish, not as someone "reduced to an animal level". Unless I'm misinterpreting your list, Derik. For the last joke; I honestly didn't get any implication about shoes from that. Honestly, I didn't see an implication of anything from it - it seemed like it was commenting on her being a redeco, or something? I don't know. But I wouldn't argue against it being removed. The first caption, while the most fitting, is pretty much the only one that seems to imply anything negative. I would like to say, though, that at least as far as I've recognized in my life, "bitch" is relatively gender neutral, and basically just means someone who is constantly complaining or criticizing (i.e., bitching). I know my friends and me call each other it all the time, and they're very definitely not women.KrytenKoro 05:38, 31 May 2009 (EDT)