Talk:Omniverse

Wow, roughly .5% of this page is actually about Transformers. You outdo yourself, Derik. --ItsWalky 01:43, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

... --FortMax 01:43, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

The Omniverse is a fundamentally not "About Transformers."

Yet we have the Omniversal matrix, which is Transformers-- so what is the Omniverses? We have the TF Multiverse... but we also have worlds not part of the TF Multiverse.

An article about the Omniverse as a structure containing multiple Multiverses is needed. Whether or not this is that article is a question. And frankly, part of the reason this has so much "non-Transformers" material is because this article also has to define what the hell a Multiverse is, since our Multiverse article is an out-fiction description of how TFWiki organize continuity familties that talks about the in-fiction concept of a TF multiverse as an afterthought. -Derik 01:50, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

....what? --Detour 02:16, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

This article does not confine itself to material published in Transformers fiction. In other words, you've managed to create an article that makes the argument for its own deletion right from the start! --KilMichaelMcC 02:19, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Fuck you too buddy. -Derik 02:32, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

There's no need to be insulting. Look, this article is simply outside of this wiki's purview, and blatantly so. If you wanted to "define what the hell a Multiverse is" you should have created the article at Multiverse, which is currently a redirect, and focused solely on Transformers. The possible intersection of the TF multiverse with Marvel's and such would be at most a trivia note. Explaining things like what the common anchor of the Wildstorm universes is.... has nothing to do with Transformers. --KilMichaelMcC 02:57, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't want to define what the TF Multiverse is. I want to define what a multiverse is and how it functions, what the structure multiverses rest in and how they interact, the rules by which crossovers like TF/Avengers function (because they do have fixed rules and an explanation for why the hell two worlds seem to temporarily overlap that were established on the Marvel side-- and that is relevant to TF, since those rules are being used in TF) and use the framework of solid ground created by pinning down those things to figure out the Marvel comics timelines, timestorm and Earthforce-- and how time, dimensions, and time-travel and possible futures function in the TF Multiverse.

But you can't really do any of that without a solid framework. Everything devolves into vague unknowability: "This is how Cybertron functions as a multiversal axis." "You don't know that, it seems vague to m!." "It's how Multiversal Axes function. Here's a dozen examples of other multiversal axes that work the same way, and the circumstantial edvidence in TF showign that it works the same way here." "Those aren't from Transformers. You need examples from Transformers." "You cannot find an example of other multiversal axes within TF fiction, because all of TF fiuction takes places within a single multiverse." Omniverse is supposed to be a starting point to set some ground rules or common understanding for those other articles to be built on. Just like pinning down exactly what any other sort of terminology means enables you to figure out more about the universe, the structure of the multiverse and Omniverse is something that needs to be covered by this Wiki if there's to ever be any hope of figuring out the TF Multiverse.

Also, I accept your apology for being so insulting. -Derik 03:18, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

You know, I really wish you were still posting on ATT, or some other TF forum, because I think that might be a much better place for you to theorize about this stuff. --KilMichaelMcC 03:40, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Theorization doesn't generally include footnotes and citations like this article.

Or were you just being snide by implying that I planned to jizz fanwank over any future articles that might come out of this? That the TF stuff wouldn't be footnoted out the ass? That's the entire point Ethan, to lay a foundation and start picking apart and comparing what the TF canon actually says. The point is to replace fanon and vague conjuncture and fuzzy understanding with fact. -Derik 03:55, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I wasn't being snide! I miss your ATT posts! They were often fascinating stuff, and they don't end up with you getting pissed off when stuff you write has to be deleted because the rest of us aren't capable of seeing the world in Derik-vision. I think the fundamental problem here is that when i comes to "how the TF multiverse works" vague conjucture and fuzzy understandings are all we're ever likely to have on this subject, because most of the folks responsible for creating the canon didn't/don't actually give a crap about creating anything consistent and logical to explain this stuff, i.e., the facts that you're looking for. --KilMichaelMcC 04:27, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

At which point is becomes useful to have comparative examples outside the TF Multiverse. The One seems to have inserted Unicron and Primus into the Universe back when it was a single universe, (or at least a lockstep one) not a multiverse. The DC Multiverse was a single universe that shattered. Likewise, IIRC the entire Marvel Multiverse as we know it today resulted from the previous universe dying when its Multiversal axis was destroyed. Axis failure exists in the TF Multiverse... but we've never seen it. Localized Multiversal collapses exist in the TF Multiverse... but we've only ever gotten the most cockeyed view of what the mechanics involved are.

And frankly, I think that the way time works in TF does make sense, it's just complicated. (I mean... there's some implication that the TF Multiverse is executing asynchronously, like a domino cascade, instead of in true parallel. That's one of the most complicated fictional multiverse mechanisms I've ever heard of if it's true... but it also makes a certain amount of sense, because it recognizes the state-machine evolution of Transformers fiction, while absorbing a lot of the problems that causes.)

Look, to write "Junkion trader," I looked over every appearance this guy had-- ever-- in detail, and a pattern emerged-- he seems to take point if Junkion trading operations. If nothing else, the TF Multiverse and time travel will make sense on that level, being able to say "well, looking at a bunch of vague examples, this appears to be the mechanism."

But I'm mroe optimistic than that. Furman's not shy about rattling off explanations. And the guidebooks do their part. I genuinely think that the TF canon itself explains how the Multiverse and time work... if you take the time to compile all the references together and figure out how they fit together. There does seem to be an underlying pattern, so the task is to track down the explicit references that turn that from a vague pattern into a crisp one with clear outlines. -Derik 04:48, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Hrm. I was being rather rude to Kil, and not my normal confrontational/constructive rude, just mean. I apologize.

I guess what I'm frustrated about is... the deletion request doesn't seem to be because of concern the article is inaccurate-- merely that it's outside of TF's pervue. But the Omniverse has been mentioned in TF-- and more than that it's active in TF, at crossover points, and there's some stuff abotut he nature, structure and extent of the TF Multiverse that should be covered by TFWiki-- but aren't anywhere, to which the answer seems to be "then split this and start a Multiverse article." If the content needs to be on the wiki and isn't-- Deletion seems just wrong. If I was just haring off after a wild goose I wouldn't care-- but there's tuff here that in some form needs to be part of this site.

The details of this article do deal most entirely with non-TF properties... but that's because this article is about how the fictional construct of the TF Multiverse interacts and relates to the fictional constructs of those other properties-- and I think that it's important to have these examples (including universes that haven't directly interacted with TF) in order to give a proper sense of the general structure that the TF Multiverse fits in. I'm not imposing those on the Tf Multiverse-- you'd be hard pressed to make the more explicitly Universe than an article whose entire mandate is "beyond the TF Multiverse lies...?" tha parallax is useful precievely because TF conforms to the general model-- so these other examples simply reinforce in a meaningful way what's already there in TF, but hard to distinguish.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. I'd ask (Kil particularly) to think about how they think this information should be structured. The article I created was meant to be a starting point of a big project to describe the very widest view of the Transformers multiverse-- a forrest whose shape is often difficult to make out amid a sea of details. -Derik 05:58, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

You can save this article, but it will require a blowtorch. I recommend a general anesthetic first:

• Delete the "list of multiverses". Only TFs have any business being there.
• Delete "functional infinity" section.
• Condense the "multiverse" section into the introductory paragraph. If you absolutely must include DC adn Marvel and Vincent Price, mention them here as "some typical multiverses are A, B and C, period." xref: Shattered Glass, where there used to be this big long pointless paragraph of wankery about... I don't know, Marvel Ultimate or some shit, and now there's just "kinda like Star Trek or that other one." -- Repowers 02:47, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

But I have no interest in reducing it to a 1-paragraph article, and that reduces its usefulness as a link-to-point when discussing cross-multiversal crossovers.

We have an article called "Multiverse" that's an out-fiction description of how TFWiki treats Continuity families.

If the Death's Head article wants to explain that DH then crossed outside of the scope of the Transformers multiverse... where is it supposed to link to?

The TF Multiverse itself contains properties like G.I. Joe, Battle Beasts, M.A.S.K., etc. Our "Multiverse" page doesn't tell you this, because it's dedicated not to the TF Multiverse (the set of universes for which Cybertron is apparently the Stable Axis) but to "the Transformers canon covered by this wiki." And the TF canon is much smaller than the body of works included in the TF multiverse.

I'm just saying... some of those bits you're suggesting blowtorching off are important. And if they don't belong here, where should they go? -Derik 03:00, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

As noted above, we don't have an article called "Multiverse." That's a redirect. --KilMichaelMcC 03:36, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I vote keep w/ rewrite. Needs a little history of the term omniverse (invented by Mark Gruenwald, etc.) and a better explanation of just how exactly it connects to Transformers. Thanos6 04:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Fly in the ointment

Gobotron.--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:31, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

What about it? Bug Bite includes his own universe among the 15 quadrillion of the TF Multiverse, so presumably the universe Gobotron is from is part of it. Either Gobotron is Cybertron (unlikely) or Cybertron is simply obscure and distant, or long dead-- but still acting as an axis-- in his universe.

The GoBots universe doesn't seem to be 'special,' there are more than one of them... (SG BugBite, remember? He's not a singularity...) so it's jsut a very different-looking type of TF Universe, like the Squadron Supreme Earth is a Marvel Universe under the hood (it have Skrulls, the Darkforce, the same high-level cosmic entities, etc.) despite looking quite different on the surface. -Derik 03:51, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Finite Omniverse

How the hell does one calculate the number of Universes in the Omniverse?

Heinlen calculated the total volume of the Omniverse by multiplying its height, width and breadth. (Only it's sorta teseracty, because each dimension loops around back to its starting place, so it's more like degrees on a protractor.) -Derik 05:29, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Isn't the point that it goes on forever and ever? If the Omniverse is finite, it kind throws a loop in all those "dude, if you think about it, there's probobly a Universe were Star Wars is real" theories that nerds come up with when their high. 24.192.196.242 06:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Careful, Derik. You keep bringing up non-Transformers stuff here and you'll end up attracting Omnios! --Detour 05:48, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Taken to Trivia

I grabbed the few points out of this that actually seemed strongly relevent to TFs and brought them over to the Trivia section of the Multiverse article. How's that? --71.235.138.121 07:02, 21 June 2009 (EDT)