Talk:The Fallen

That bit about how the Fallen was created by Pat Lee? In the latest edition of Wayward's Insecticomics it is said that it was actually Furman who created the character, that Lee just did the design. When I asked her about it, she posted this transcript which backs that up. --KilMichaelMcC 14:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

OK so I just left line in the trivia, cos I thought it was funny.

So he's the henchman of a evil being, has mystical supernatural powers, is a badass and is on fire? Someone might want to file a law suit.

Can it stay or should I take it back down?Dead Metal 09:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

..I don't even get that. AlwaysWrong 22:44, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

It was removed, it contained a link to the wikipedia article for Ghost RiderDead Metal 09:33, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

Head

Anyone notice that his head is very Soundwave-y? When i first saw him, i clearly recognized his head as soundwave's with added badassery.--Skyglide 05:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Disambig time?

http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/default.cfm?page=News/Item&newsid=59522272-D56F-E112-4C783175A8BBBAD6

Ah-heh.

(SOMEBODY IN THAT MOVIE DAMN WELL BETTER BE ON FIRE.) --ItsWalky 19:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Fallen, Bludgeon and Megs

I don't know about Bludgeon, but there is a connection between the Fallen and Megs: IDW Megatron's Cybertronian body is based off of the Fallen, right down to the design of the Fusion Cannon. User:GWolfv2 21.07 June 11

Defiance issue 4 Fallen's backstory

Defiance issue 4 is out. TFW2005.com has posted all the Fallen-relevant spoilers from issue 4, but beware, if you're avoiding Defiance, this spoils the Fallen's crazy scheme in the movie. The backstory for the Fallen seems fairly different to the Fallen we know. So are they still the same guy? --FFN 14:56, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

Still appears to be a member of the Thirteen, still appears to betray them, still apparently serves a force that devours planets/stars.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 15:12, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

But from what I understand of the "multiversal singularity" characters thing, there's just one Fallen, so the guy created by Primus who eventually serves Unicron is also a guy created by a Cube who serves nobody but himself and is building solar towers to replenish the Cube. Or is the currently-untold story of the 13 vague enough that this still works? --FFN 15:20, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

It does seem pretty distinct. One's a "created by mighty power source, got selfish, betrayed his brothers, now want to kick off where things went wrong" other "created as a multiversal control for entrophy and warrior against Unicron. Switched sides. Most dangerous servant of the ultimate evil ever". User:Eire 21.21 Apr 8 2009 (UTC)

I don't trust a 3rd party summary written by someone who may not fully understand the story to accurately represent what's actually in the story. -Derik 16:44, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

In any case, I suspect we are probably going to need to wait to see what the movie itself has to say before making a decision on this. It may expand on what is presented in the comic, it may contradict it in some way, it could make it easier to tie this version in with the previous mythos or may firmly separate it, etc. --KilMichaelMcC 17:54, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think we would have to wait until the movie if the comic is fairly clear on the matter. - Starfield 17:59, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

I think we do, because as I said, we have no way of knowing in advance how well the actual movie will line up with the comic. --KilMichaelMcC 18:05, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

The Fallen is one thing, but what about definite "multiversal singularity" Primus? Does the AllSpark=Primus in the movieverse? - Starfield 17:59, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

The AllSpark has been designated a sacred implement in Japanese fiction.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 18:07, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

It is not uncommon for Transformers to have no knowledge of Primus or Unicron. For every world where they have a full-blown religion to fill them in, you have one where the Transformers have neither heard of either-- remember in The Transformers: The Movie Hot Rod and Kup had never even heard Unicron's name before. -Derik 02:06, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Did they not mention that the Fallen calls himself and his other pals "trans-dimensional beings"? --ItsWalky 19:48, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

Not the mention this interview affirming he's the original and was "banished to another dimension." -Derik 02:06, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

I think what they mean by that is that he's stuck in that stupid pylon. --ItsWalky 02:15, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

The Fallen gets Power Plans!

[1] Preview page from the upcoming DK Ultimate Movie Guide, which is totally written by Furman. It establishes a few important things. The Fallen is an "omniversal tyrant." He betrayed his fellow Primes to serve the source of his new "chaotic" powers "from the very birth of the universe," forces which seek to replace morality with a "void." --ItsWalky 16:06, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

If Nimoy is cast as him, it will be the second time in his career that he'll be playing some sort of servant of Unicron. --FFN 02:36, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Subject Seperation

Will you make a separate page the live action version of the Fallen? --Some Random User guy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.230.53.229 (talk • contribs) 00:50, May 20, 2009 EDT.

As we far as we know, the Fallen is a multi-dimensional being that can... you get the picture. If this Fallen is established as a seperate being, then maybe.--AWT88 01:01, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

And as seen in Walky's post above this, the DK guide establishes the Fallen as an "Omniversal tyrant". That more or less means the Fallen is one of those characters who can travel between dimensions, and there's only one of him. Thus, we consider ROTF Fallen to be the same guy as Dreamwave comics Fallen, unless the movie says otherwise (and it obviously won't). --FFN 02:36, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Despite the brain-bending problems this creates with the other 12, yes. Are they all birthed by the AllSpark then? That's not what The Ultimate Guide says... (We'll figure it out. Expect the backpedaling, qualifications and clarifications to begin trickling in this fall.) -Derik 04:15, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

You know, the movie universe could have two individuals named the Fallen. I mean, it's not a real name, but rather a sort of title, right? Why couldn't the omniversal tyrant and some douchebag that came from the allspark live in the same universe? -- Semysane 04:26, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Two dimension-hopping flaming ancient Primes who discarded their name in favor of being called "The Fallen" after betraying their 12 fellow Primes, the oldest of Transformers?

We already have the Covenant and the Thirteen. Don't make this more complicated. -Derik 04:39, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

I personally think they should be seperated. I mean, he's been trapped in that relic, or whatever it exactly is, for a really long time. How could he of shown up in the IDW series? And, the other 12 sacrificed themselves, so, how could they exist either? -VakamaMetruNui 09:29, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

(The Dreamwave series, not the IDW series.) That's really easy to explain. The DW Fallen was also trapped in a dimension, same as the Movie one. He was able to break free of it due to a space bridge accident, and was apparently banished back to it by Primus. (He would have returned if DW hadn't gone bankrupt, so he wasn't dead.) Who knows how time and space work in there. --ItsWalky 10:11, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Unicron keeps showing up in new places yet always gets defeated in more or less the same way; why should his gothy wanna-be have it any better? Since his "real" origin was as a creation of Primus, perhaps the entire Movie Allspark / Movie Original 13 was something the Fallen himself put together later--he tried his own hand at being a god, while actually not claiming credit for it but just inserting himself among the lineup, like Keyser Soze. Or maybe he used his woowoo omniversal magic to sense that some other god was about to create the Allspark, and then he twisted the whole process to his own ends. Who knows. And if all that sounds like a deus-ex-machina, remember that that is LITERALLY what he is. --Thylacine 2000 10:24, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

What dimension did this happen in? The movie-verse? Not necessarily.

I think splitting the page of a known dimension-hopper goes against common sense. Without a really good reason, of course. I don't think there is a good reason yet. - Starfield 10:47, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

At BotCon 2009, Hasbro copy-writer Forest Lee stated once again (at the Collectors' Club panel) that the Original 13 are all multiversal singularities. Apparently the upcoming movie hasn't changed his mind! So let's hold on to our current setup for the time being. --ItsWalky 16:11, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

He didn't state this before, IIRC he stated that they were probably Multiversal singularities before.

Do you or anyone (Steve) have an exact working on his statement this weekend? It's worth citing it on the 13 page. -Derik 16:52, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't, no. And Steve-o wasn't there this weekend, so we are without his meticulous information-gathering. He did specifically say that the original 13 were multiversal singularities, though. It was in response to someone asking if Shattered Glass The Fallen would be icy. Forest said that as one of the 13, The Fallen doesn't have any multiverse counterparts. There's just one of him, the same as Vector Prime and the others. (Trent noted that he liked to believe that if the Fallen were to ever wander into the Shattered universe, his flames would turn to ice, much to his confusion.)--ItsWalky 19:53, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Movie altmode

FYI: If we get Hasbro photography depicting a toy with an altmode (we have!) and the paragraph in question is describing that toy, then the presence of said altmode is officially confirmed. I don't know under what logic you can say otherwise.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 20:10, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Remember Scorponok's robot mode? I believe the debate is whether or not The Fallen's vehicle mode was something invented for the toyline. - Cattleprod 20:48, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Except the altmode description was removed from the toy section. The toy has an altmode. Plain as day. Thus the section describing that toy ought to mention said altmode.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 21:07, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Ah, right then. Well... most of what I said can be salvaged, assuming this argument comes up outside the toy section. - Cattleprod 21:14, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Decepticon symbol

I see there is a Decepticon symbol on The Fallen's page for a long while, is this something related to his toy(s)? Thanks. (I can't reach my Titanium Fallen now, so... ) --TX55^TALK 11:24, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

His ROTF toy packaging consistently labels him a Decepticon. He helped Megatron START the Decepticon faction in the live-action continuity. And the Decepticon faction symbol is based on his face. --ItsWalky 11:35, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

So it is really due to the ROTF. Thanks. ;-D --TX55^TALK 12:55, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

What they said.

I notice the Beast-machines Dinobots symbol links to the Dinobots disambig page-- was it used tor the Wal-Mart Dinobots as well? -Derik 11:56, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Mainpic

When the Wikia site comes up on Google, it also has a secondary link, which is their version of this page. Our secondary link is Animated, which is unfortunately now a bit less relevant than theirs. (Notably, they've even rebranded their site to have a Movie look.) Happily, our The Fallen is much better than theirs because we've expanded the DW section, and they still haven't written ANYTHING about the prequel comics. Plus, y'know, there's the stuff that made us leave in the first place. But in the interests of sealing the relevancy deal, I suggest we change the mainpic to be The Fallen's ROTF body. That way even at a GLANCE a viewer can see which one is more up-to-date. What do you all think? - Jackpot 16:23, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

I support this. We've got good promo renders of it. Let's do it.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 16:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Sounds good to me, I say go for it. Maybe change it back when the movie buzz fades down, but for now, yeah, totally. - Chris McFeely 16:44, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Heh, so they merged the articles back. TX55 was an editor here. Doesn't he notice the borked layout of the images? --FFN 17:00, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Grargh fiction

Do we really need to separate out his various DK Ultimate Guide and Titanium information into their own little sections. Can't we throw those into the beginning of the Dreamwave continuity section and cite them appropriately? This page is now a real friggin' chore to read and understand. --ItsWalky 19:58, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, it sorta feels like it's... out of order. Cause, it is. Fictionally. I mean, I grok what Jackpot has done - he's put it in publication order, which I know is an approach that he's generall favoured in the past, but to me, it just doesn't "read" right. (Also, I am totally about to ruin the "he is on fire" joke. Watch me go!) - Chris McFeely 20:05, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

I feel a little weird about combining them like that, but I don't full-on object. I don't think there's ever been precedent for putting toy-bio info into a comic-series summary, but in this case there was clearly intent behind the bio to make it mesh, and there are no variant War Within "continuities." All I can do is note that it's unorthodox and move along.

Oh, and Walky, thanks for restoring the continuity-family headers. My theory is that since our default organizational model is to separate our articles based on continuity family, whenever we break that "rule," we should call it out.

- Jackpot 16:49, 7 June 2009 (EDT)

Really not buying the 'multiversal singularity' thing here

Recently, I saw the new movie and....... I don't see how it could possibly be the same character as in Dreamwave's comics. Not only is his entire backstory different, but his motives also seem different and the film also makes mention that The Fallen was a member of 8 original leaders (if I remember correctly), as opposed to 13. Not to mention his radically different appearance (the other 'multiversal singularities' at least all looked alike) and abilities.

Unless the writers find a way of explaining how this could be possible, I don't see how it makes any form of sense.

The fact it's 8 and not 13 is the first sign that the writers intend to explain it. They're backpedaling away from making it "The 13" because it creates way to many problems.

We all basically agree that it makes not sense now, but this (very last-minute) change strongly indicates that it will make sense, and that Hasbro's story-gurus has finally figured out how they intend to make it fit. -Derik 19:33, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I seriously doubt that Hasbro's story-gurus had any imput whatsoever on the contents of the movie itself. --KilMichaelMcC 20:35, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes, I think that rather than being The 'Multiversal Singularity' Fallen, The (ROTF) Fallen is just a 'fallen' Prime who is subsequently and coincidentally called "The Fallen". He happens to have the same name, like Prowl, Prowl, Prowl, Prowl and Prowl.218.214.49.189 21:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

That's nice, but Hasbro's packaging bio writer is saying that's not the case. Thus we have to go with what he says. --Rosicrucian ^Talk 21:09, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Change of appearance

From TF; The Movie Universe

The Fallen butchered and betrayed his brother Primes, disowning his given name in favor of one befitting his new, terrifying appearance.Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen: The Movie Universe p86, "The Fallen"

Late intot he game, we have the idea that The Fallen may have changed his appearance. (And since his appearance is really no different than the other Primes... it begs the question what the hell this is talking about.)

Oh, and Walky was wondering abotu the curiously-regular panes of transparent plastic on The Fallen toy's shoulders... accordign to the guidebook, he has "Energon Distribution arcs" in his shoulders-- I think they're actually supposed to represent some sort of energy blade. -Derik 19:44, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Unreliable narrator

So I saw the ROTF film. It really doesn't clash with the Multiversal Singularity thing too bad... it's Defiance that's the real problem. And I'm beginning to think that Definace just had a serious case of "unreliable narrator."

Let's assume (for a moment) that the Fallen was lying about parts of his backstory to Megatron. He certainly didn't mention Primus or Unicron (so we know he left stuff out) and we know he was snowing Megatron about making him a Prime (something you apparently have to be born to in the Movieverse.) He's ALREADY demonstrably lying, so lets throw out everything he said about his own origins, and assume he's actually the same dimension-hopping spanish-speaking nutjob we know and love-- what would the universe 'look' like?

Logically, The Fallen

traveled to this universe and integrated himself with it-- somehow convincing the six Founding Primes of the universe that he was one of them. He then secretly endeavored to murder them all, destroy the Earth and seize ultimate power for himself using the sun harvester.

Of course, if this was actually what happened, and The Fallen is lying... you'd expect there to be some indicator[ of this in the IDW comics.

Oh hey, look at that! It's the ancient illustration Starscream was trying to replicate in "Reign of Starscream"! The only piece of evidence from the era of the original Primes that doesn't come from our Unreliable Narrator. And what does it show?

Six Primes surrounding the AllSpark cube as it is renewed by the Sun Harvester. Not seven.

 -Derik 23:55, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

As much as I really want to make this all work, I don't know if I want to go the Unreliable Narrator route. --ItsWalky 00:18, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Neither do I... but if IDW chooses to quietly change the 13 primes to the 7 in their Movie Spotlight books... at that point the Fallen's retelling of history becomes much more actively wrong, and this bit from Reign of Starscream fits quite nicely.

I figured it was worth highlighting as a possibility. It wouldn't be appropriate to present it as "fact" until IDW gets a crack at it. (It seems almost inevitable that there are Retcons Comings.) But i was pleased to discover that there's at least one fairly clean way here to make things more-or-less fit, and it ties into some pre-established continuity arond Starscream's plan with the Replica Allspark, which is a definite plus in terms of making the change less jarring. -Derik 00:27, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Your way probably works better than my "the other 6 Primes were busy." But still, that's fanon until Forest Lee gets a crack at it. --ItsWalky 00:31, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

...That leaves me a little worried that we're putting our hopes on IDW. Especially since they caused quite a few of the problems. And lets not even get into their record of continuity consistency in okaying All Hail Megatron. -- SFH 00:34, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

But nothing the movies is 100% consistent with one another. Did you notice Leo mentioned the big fight from the 2007 movie took place in L.A.? And the IDW comics aren't in continuity with the first movie in a strict sense either-- Reign of starscream dedicated a page to re-doing the "gathering of the 'cons" from the dfirst movie just so they could assert "no, he's called BRAWL damnit." Or the helicopter being shot down over ~~Afganistan~~ America.

Frankly, I think think the wiki would be best off is we weaned ourselves of this tendency to present the IDW comics as somehow "the primary continuity." They're definitely bound up tightly with the movies... but they aren't in perfect continuity with them-- and it's not just oddities, it's outright deliberate contradiction, like the Brawl thing. -Derik 00:57, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Until I get an official reasoning to change continuity flow of various fiction, I'd rather leave the articles as they are. Brawl thing - who cares, really? --FFN 04:36, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

By which you mean "structured differently than every other fiction section on the wiki." ;)

(I'm not really pushing for the restructure either. Just talking in general terms.) -Derik 04:54, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

I'm set in my ways, dagnabbit. Yeah, the movie kind of started the movement of supporting fiction such as comic books and novels more or less directly being in continuity with the primary fiction, something we saw later in Animated. As opposed to the traditional TF method of having comics and cartoons and books all going in completely different directions. --FFN 05:26, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

You've got it backwards. The Mowry-penned stuff has some of the best internal consistency of the entire continuity.--Rosicrucian ^Talk 00:37, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Right, Mowry was foreshadowing the RotF plot in the second issue of Reign of Starscream, before anything had leaked. And he seems to have a pretty clear idea where almost every character "was" before and after the war, how they're related to one another, etc. He also did a lot of ground work to make the game drones fit right. -Derik 00:57, 25 June 2009 (EDT)

Voyager toy

The Voyager toy has slidable gauntlets, shinguards, and some kind of firey thing under the shinguards, but none of these are called out in the instructions, or seem to serve any point in either mode. Should this be mentioned in the article, and if not, does anyone know what the deal with them is?KrytenKoro 20:50, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

"saturn"?

Especially because the novel specifically says it's not Saturn, can we get rid of this? Unless it was revealed in an interview or on a toy bio or something, all the movie shows is that it's on the moon of a ringed planet - without specifically identifying it.KrytenKoro 19:22, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Power of a Prime?

Why is that important? --Boba Fett 20:15, 12 July 2009 (EDT)