Talk:Predacon (Prime)

Kreon Predacons?

We count Kreons as their own continuity. But I really feel like the Kreon Predacons are meant to flesh out the Pred numbers. I suppose they don't go here unless they're in aligned? Or can we put all Preds with this faction symbol on the same page, like the Wreckers are. Thoughts?--76.28.76.206 19:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

That's a good question. These guys are explicitly Beast Hunters-branded, but I doubt Hasbro will make a distinction between BH and non-BH Kre-O fiction. My inclination is to leave them off, but it's an imperfect answer necessitated by our wiki's entire way of handling continuities. -LV 19:59, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Most of our factional pages are cross-continuity. We only have one Decepticon and Autobot page, instead of Autobot (G1), Autobot (Armada), etc, because they're all really the same entity. But unlike how "Autobot" always means the same thing, the "Predacon" faction often means something different, depending on continuity family, whether it's G1, BW, or (now) Aligned. The Autobot and Decepticon pages are lucky enough to not have to have a "franchise-of-origin" disambiguation parenthetical, but Predacon (Prime) is not. ....long story short, I think Kre-O Predacons can go on this page, because this is the page for This Cross-Continuity Iteration Of Predacons. --ItsWalky 20:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Since it's all evidently under the Beast Hunters umbrella, why not just "Predacon (Beast Hunters)"?--Carrion 21:48, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Because Beast Hunters is a sub-franchise of Prime. The full title is "Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters". -- spyder^{Use this!} 22:33, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Except that these new Kre-O sets also sport the Beast Hunters sub-franchise logo. And they said at the NYCC panel that it's gonna be the 2013 theme of not just the Prime franschise but the whole Transformers brand itself. --Sabrblade 14:42, 16 October 2012 (EDT)

Members and plot

I'm not real clear on what the preferred format is for subgroup pages, so would it be appropriate to have a list of members as they appear in the show/books, and would info on the Predacon's goals that would be spoilers for recent materials be appropriate for the lead, or does it need to remain within a synopsis until the spoilers expire?KrytenKoro 14:56, 4 December 2012 (EST)

Well, I went ahead and added the stuff that's already mentioned on the wiki, figuring that can't be too bad. Should Swoop count as a temporary member?KrytenKoro 00:27, 12 February 2013 (EST)

I still think we're artificially merging the concepts of the Predacons and the Forged. Being turned into one of the Forged didn't make Swoop a Predacon, nor were the Forged ever stated to all be Predacons. All of the Forged have been modified to be loyal to Shockwave, but we don't really know what else. Ser-Ket and Backbite are the only two that have displayed beast modes.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:40, 12 February 2013 (EST)

Oh, I guess I misunderstood the comic book, then. I am missing #2, so...yeah. Oops!

Also, apparently there's some kind of Beast Hunters guidebook written from Shockwave's point of view that's been published. Anyone know if (1) that's kosher for inclusion and (2) the character mentioned within it who is not already on this page is okay to be added? (I don't want to spoil anything that's not already on the wiki)KrytenKoro 00:52, 12 February 2013 (EST)

That was a pamphlet handed out to folks at ToyFair to hype upcoming releases. As far as I know it's entirely kosher.--Rosicrucian^Talk 01:01, 12 February 2013 (EST)

When I asked about that pamphlet, one of the Hasbro presenters said that it was an internal document that was meant to pump the team up for Beast Hunters, and that later it was apparently used as a giveaway in Hong Kong, which they didn't find out about it until it hit the internet. We did not receive it for attending US Toy Fair 2013. --Monzo 01:19, 12 February 2013 (EST)

If...it's not meant to ever be given out in English, and was released officially in Hong Kong...does it loophole back to usable?KrytenKoro 02:30, 12 February 2013 (EST)

Well with this information it was certainly intended to be given out in English, just not in North America. Hasbro Asia is still an official channel, and thus it ought to still be kosher. It's not a leak.--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:14, 12 February 2013 (EST)

In regards to the Forged, the latest description of Rage of the Dinobots seems to indicate that they are Predacons, possibly that Shockwave is one as well. (Of course, the blurb holds no water next to the comic, but just bringing this up).

DINOBOT WAR! GRIMLOCK leads the DINOBOTS against SHOCKWAVE's troops-and the results won't be pretty! With SWOOP under SER-KET's control, it's an all-or-nothing battle of DINOBOT versus PREDACON-with the fate of CYBERTRON hanging on every punch, blast, jab, and bite! Don't miss the senses-shattering conclusion to this mind-blowing miniseries!

Go! Predacon subgroup name

The grouping of Bakudora, Budora, Gaidora, and Judora is referred to as 四鬼衆 (Shikishū). The first two kanji are easily translatable as "Four Demon", but the last one leaves me scratching my head. I'm not really sure how to translate it in conjunction to the "Four Demon" part. (In case you're wondering, the Goraadora components are Jaki.) Mimi 23:12, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

Hmm, pretending no language/translation knowledge but "masses" "great numbers" would the English word "Horde" work at all? "Four Demon Horde" sounds like a thing...--ZacWilliam 00:06, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

"Oni Army Predacons" is a term I've seen relatively often. With the surfacing of the above other term, I'm now questioning this one's validity. --Sabrblade 18:59, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

"鬼" is more often used to portray a ferocious ogre rather than what would be called a demon in the West, so I don't think "demon" is going to be the best here. Maybe "monster" or "ogre"?

Also, "四衆" is the "four orders of Buddhist followers" or "four assemblies", which this seems to me to be a play on. "The Four Monstrous Assemblies", maybe?KrytenKoro 11:07, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

"Oni" are pretty well known of in the Western World, so I'd say it'd be safe to keep that. After all, the word does refer to a specific kind of monster rather than just generic "ogres" or "demons". --Sabrblade 16:58, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

They aren't assemblies, though. They're just four guys. I assume the use of a group word here is modified by containing four guys, not being multiplied by four. -LV 17:25, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

So, they're the "Four Oni Predacons", then? Or should the word "Predacon" come first since it's written as such in Japanese? Something like the "Predacon Four Oni Army"? --Sabrblade 17:55, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

If "衆" reads as "army", then, yeah, that'd be what I would go with. I certainly think "oni" in the context of Go! in particular makes more sense than genericizing it. They are clearly oni; making them "monsters" would be like renaming the Swordbots the Knight Team and the Assassin Team. -LV 19:08, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm actually unsure if "衆" can be read as "army", since I only got that from other people rather than from a fully proper translation. Though, I do think "Four Oni Predacons" sounds nicer and not as clunky as "Predacon Four Oni (whatever)". But, if we must find a word for "衆", I'd hope for a way to make it sound good enough in English. --Sabrblade 01:11, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm a bit unclear on how the Predacons work in Go!, but it sounded like that they could make multiples of the Abominus-repaint. Are we sure they're not doing something similar with the four deluxe/voyager predacons, could they be templates or something?

"鬼" on its own refers to a specific type of yokai, but is often used in compounds to mean something not quite demonic but merely unfettered and monstrous, like the "Kishin" or "Fierce Deity" Link. "衆" isn't "army", though. It has no military connotation, it means "masses of people". Furthermore, it turns out the "Four Assemblies" thing isn't even the closest match! There is in fact a "Hachibukishuu" where the number is 8 rather than 4.

"ちなみに八部鬼衆は、乾闥婆・毘舎闍・鳩槃荼・薛茘多・那伽（龍）・富單那・夜叉・羅刹の名を挙げる。"

"Incidentally, Hachibukishu include Kendatsuba, Bishaja, Kuhanda, Heireita, Naga, Futanna, Yasha and Rasetsu (Rakshasa)."

The way it's described, it seems to be describing races of oni or other Buddhist demons/monsters.

A somewhat similar construction, "鬼道衆" (which is given as "Demoniac horde, rather than Demon horde) appears in Tokyo Majin.

Based on all that, I'd have to say the most accurate translations are either "The Four (Predacon) Hordes" (if there's more than one of each bodyform - this matches the form of the Buddhist analogy) or "The (Predacon) Horde of Four" (if we're absolutely sure there's only one of each).

On a side note, I'm confused as to how they are clearly Oni rather than just generic yokai or dragons. Can anyone help me out with that?KrytenKoro 14:16, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Because the episode itself calls them "Oni".

It also shows Gaidora, Judora, Budora, and Bakudora to be individuals while the Jaki are just generic fodder that Gaidora can seemingly make at will.

So, with "horde" in mind, I guess they'd be the "Predacon Four Oni Horde" or something? Or, if we go by how we refer to "Transformer Daisakusen" as "The Great Transformer War", maybe they'd be the "Four Predacon Oni Horde" or the "Four Oni Predacon Horde"? Actually, that last one kinda sounds like the best option. --Sabrblade 14:26, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Ah, okay, that context clarifies things immensely! Thanks.

"Horde", from what I've found, would be the compound kishuu, rather than just the shuu.

"Four Oni Predacon Horde" sounds kind of awkward to me, and sounds like it would confuse whether it's four individuals or four tribes. I'd reocmmend something like the "(Predacon) (Oni) Horde of Four", which flows a bit more naturally and communicates that the horde consists of four members, rather than beings four hordes. Or, if necessary, the "(Predacon) Four-Oni Horde".KrytenKoro 16:57, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Also, "Horde of Four" sounds faintly like "hors d'oeuvres", which makes me giggle.KrytenKoro 16:58, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

I think it would be best to avoid as much of a mouthful title as possible. Though, I'm still skeptical on "Horde" for "shū", and if you say it's more for "kishū" instead of just "shū", then we might wanna think up something else. Out of curiosity, couldn't it just be the "Four Oni Predacons" if the "masses"/"multitude" connotation of "shū" could possibly translate out to just the plurality of the subject (which in this case would be the word "Predacon")? Or, does "shū" have to have its own word? --Sabrblade 00:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

It does seem reasonable to leave it out if it just means "group", because in English we don't normally have to specify that a number of related people are a group. "Four Oni Predacons" conveys the same sense as "Predacon Four Oni Group" when used as a proper noun. -LV 00:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The "Predacon Oni Quartet". It will save time if they later go into barbershop too. --abates 01:52, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I like that more than "Four Oni Predacons" or whatever. Mimi 02:06, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Wait, abates wasn't just making a joke?

Anyway, here's a new, but related question. How do we go about handling the components of Goradora? When Gaidora creates them, he speaks (what at least sounds like) the phrase, "Yami no Jaki domo" which Walruslaw subbed as "Jaki minions". On Japanese Wikipedia, the "Yami no Jaki" part is there too. But, what would the "domo" bit imply? And if we're to keep "Jaki" as is, what of the "Yami no" part? "Dark Jaki"? "Jaki of Darkness"? Would the "domo" part affect the translation in any manner? Did I even spell "domo" right? Could there be a macron above one or maybe both of the O's in "domo"? Gah, too many questions! --Sabrblade 02:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The implication that I was getting from the words used compared to historical usage of those components is that shu is not there just to imply plurality - simply having "shiki" would have had that meaning. I got the impression that they're trying to communicate that just these four guys together are like a rampaging horde of demons. Again, I've not seen the anime at all so if "Four-Oni Horde" is not an implication given by the material, then "Four Oni Predacons" would be fine...it's just a really odd construction to use for that.

"-domo" is usually a second or third-person plural implying seriously lower status of the subject respective to the speaker, so it's talking to them like they're the cannonfodder. "Yami no Jaki" is "Dark Devils/Imps/Evil Spirits"; with the banality implied by using "-domo", I'd suggest "Dark Imps" or some similar "demon-thing-what-gets-no-respect", like goblin or boogeyman.KrytenKoro 09:58, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The episode, unsubbed, is on YouTube to watch. Walruslaw's subbed version, however, can be downloaded from his Google docs account.

The four Preds in the anime are really not much of a horde, since the episode has only two of them taking part in the mission, despite all four having awakened together and being simultaneously active (the other two likely went on a different mission to be covered in the Swordbot Shinobi Team episode).

As for the Jaki, how well does the "Jaki minions" translation from the fansub work? It seems to be preferable to keep the word "Jaki" since, like "Oni", the episode called them that. Though, while "Dark Jaki" kinda sounds a little iffy, I get the impression that it's the most accurate sounding. --Sabrblade 10:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

What I meant in regards to horde was that it sounds like it's implying that each member is a "One-man horde", more ferocious than your average bear Oni. I mean, they are eons-old alien robot dragons, after all.

-domo is just a suffix like -sama. It indicates the level of respect given (in this case, none), and does not actually "mean" minion..it's more like "hey, you Jaki bastards over there, go do what I say". The name of the entities sounds like it's just "Yami no Jaki". My own style is that, if there's a reason to leave part of a Japanese name unWesternized, leave the kanji and hiragana parts as Romaji and only translate the katakana, so I would leave it as "Yami no Jaki" as the name and note the disrespectful usage in notes.KrytenKoro 14:35, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I think what might help us out the best would be for you to see the episode for yourself. Here it is in raw form, here it is with Chinese subtitles (if they're of any use to you), and here is the downloadable first fansubbed version from Walruslaw (he's done a revision of the subtitle script since, but it hasn't been finalized yet). --Sabrblade 17:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

So, after Sipher's firm speech about not needing to be fancy and being utilitarian in our name translations, "Four Oni Predacons" works well enough to get the point across without needing to beautify the term. But, there's still the matter of "Yami no Jaki" to deal with for the Goradora components. Are we to keep it as it is, or go with something like "Dark Jaki", "Jaki of Darkness", etc.? (This is important for the fansub) --Sabrblade 23:24, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

My opinion is that "Jaki" is primarily a word that doesn't have a good English analogue, but the modifier does. It therefore makes the most sense to me to render it as "Dark Jaki". I can't say I have an overly strong opinion on it, though. -LV 00:10, 12 July 2013 (EDT)

I'll try to watch the video today, Sabrblade, I'm sorry for the delay.KrytenKoro 14:25, 13 July 2013 (EDT)

The kanji "衆" is also used sometimes to indicate someone's "public" - IE, retainers, attendants, entourage. Such as the word "男衆". Given their role in the series, I think the best translation here is "Four Predacon Demon Attendants" or something along those lines.--BraveMax 05:59, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

But they're not just ordinary "demons", they're called "Oni" by the episode (we even use the word on the franchise page's notes section). Again, we've no need to make this look more pretty than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacons" is fine. --Sabrblade 18:31, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, leaving it "Oni" is pointless. Sure, most people into Anime know the term, and it may have originated as a specific type of Youkai (which, it's worth noting, was not a "type of demon" so much as something wholly unrelated - "youkai" doesn't mean "demon"), but it's a lot more general in common usage these days. I doubt they really intend anything more than just "demons/evil spirits/ogres". If you want to be super accurate, translate it "Ogre". Also, "Four Oni Predacons" leaves out the "衆" part of the meaning entirely. It should still be "Four Predacon Oni Attendants" or "Four Oni Predacon Attendants" or something like that even if you insist on keeping "Oni" for whatever reason. They're clearly meant to be Dragotron's right-hand henchmen.--BraveMax 20:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

The robot mode's heads are clearly designed to look like Oni, for whatever that's worth. I think "Oni" in this case might actually mean Oni, not merely a generic for "evil spirit" as is increasingly common. -Derik 01:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

You're missing the point again. Oni is easily translatable. So why leave it untranslated? Hasn't this wiki demonstrated a virulent dislike of leaving naked Japanese words in play? Also - my main point is the sub group name. Not whether we call them Onis/Ogres/Demons/Frank/Barrack Obama.--BraveMax 04:08, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

And I tend to agree -- naked Japanese is bad, it usually represents an inability to reach a consensus, so everyone "agrees" to just render the name non-useful.

However one of the features of this debate is whether or not the term "oni" is being used to in the specific sense or the generic sense... as it has become common to use "Oni" to mean "Demon" in recent years. I was pointing out that the heads of the toys actually do seem to resemble Oni, which is a tic in favor of the word. -Derik 11:04, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

I think what we have here is basically a play on "Four Man Army," and whatever translation we settle on should reflect that.

Honestly I'd go with "Four Cardinal Terrors" as capturing the spirit of the original without cleaving to the actual words. Translation isn't a word-for-word thing... these words are a venn-diagram whose overlap contains the intended meaning. The question is how to express that.

"Cardinal" because... hell, I don't know...! Cardinal directions, north, south, east and west? Army isn't right, horde isn't quite right... I think there's a "completeness unto itself" going on here that expresses the idea that these for, collectively, are some sort of prime exemplar -- The Four Demon Army, the definitive article, with each unit contributing to a greater whole.

Four 'Mon Army. It's punny in a way that captures the core idea in a way that translates well to western sensibilities. If this were an episode title, I honestyly think we'd render it this way.

Alas it is not, so we won't. I'm still advocating "Four Cardinal Terrors," or that we at least consider that "basic, fundamental, greatest, highest..." is somewhere int he mix of the idea being expressed even though no individual word translates that way.

(Derik has ideas about Transformers.) -Derik 00:39, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

I really don't think we need to make this any more fancy than it needs to be. Keeping it as simple and basic as it can be would help the masses understand it better. Now, if we really do need to find a term for 衆 beyond a mere pluralization of "Predacons", then how about "Unit"? Or "Force(s)"? Something to keep the whole thing from being more of a mouthful than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacon Unit/Force(s)", "Predacon Four Oni Unit/Force(s)", "Four Predacon Oni Unit/Force(s)"? Though, not in the use of a military connotation (as Kryten noted above that 衆 has none--which also throws "army" right out), but simply of them being part of the same group/team. --Sabrblade 14:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

Okay, watched it.

1. It could possibly be Regen Disc, I dunno.
2. Erg...flashbacks to Digimon Xros Wars. Especially based on that, I would not picture "Predacon" as part of the name (see this similar intro screen). 衆 means "people" in the most general way - no implication beyond masses. That being said, they are clearly called "Oni" and their helmets are styled after traditional Oni, so yeah, "Four-Oni Horde" or "Four Onis" would both be accurate translations.
3. He drops the "Yami no" and "-dono" later, so I'm not sure the official name is anything other than "Jaki". Gaidora is just using language-toward-an-inferior each time he calls on them, so I think "Dark Jaki" would be best, to fit with the "Four Onis".

KrytenKoro 22:49, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

"Predacon" is in the title since the full text above the names of both Budora and Gaidora reads as プレダコン四鬼衆 (Puredacon Shikishū). So... "Four Oni Predacons", after all?

As for "Yami no Jaki-dono", I just figured his dropping the rest of it was to refer to "Jaki Gattai" as its own term. As in "The Yami no Jaki-dono were brought together in a Jaki Gattai." Sorta like how one could say "The Swordbots were brought together in a Sanjou Gattai." --Sabrblade 23:23, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

"Predacon Four Demon Unit." Or possibly "Four Demon Force" are my recommendation. Simple, to the point. Rather than winge about what best conveys some admittedly ambiguous meaning you just go for the most neutral term possible. Or "Four Oni Band," "Four Demons Crew" (I think the pluralization of demons there actually helps the name hold together better)

Is there a reason we can't just use "Demon Quartet"? Folding four+group into one word makes it read way, waaay better in English. -Derik 02:15, 16 July 2013 (EDT)

Top list

Should the list at the top include the BS and Kre-O alternate continuity versions listed lower on the page? Should we even consider those separate continuity versions? Should we at least include the Kre-O Stormrazor and Corhada, since those don't appear in the normal continuity?KrytenKoro 10:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Also the Kre-O versions of the G1 Predacons seem to be regarded as Kre-O Predacons (The Predacon skin on kre-o-nation.com features Predaking and Headlock). Though Rampage,the blindpack dude, is named "Decepticon Rampage", so I don't know where that leaves him. Maybe we need to have a Predacon (Kre-O) article. --abates 21:32, 11 July 2013 (EDT)