Talk:Predacon (Prime)

Kreon Predacons?

We count Kreons as their own continuity. But I really feel like the Kreon Predacons are meant to flesh out the Pred numbers. I suppose they don't go here unless they're in aligned? Or can we put all Preds with this faction symbol on the same page, like the Wreckers are. Thoughts?--76.28.76.206 19:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

That's a good question. These guys are explicitly Beast Hunters-branded, but I doubt Hasbro will make a distinction between BH and non-BH Kre-O fiction. My inclination is to leave them off, but it's an imperfect answer necessitated by our wiki's entire way of handling continuities. -LV 19:59, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Most of our factional pages are cross-continuity. We only have one Decepticon and Autobot page, instead of Autobot (G1), Autobot (Armada), etc, because they're all really the same entity. But unlike how "Autobot" always means the same thing, the "Predacon" faction often means something different, depending on continuity family, whether it's G1, BW, or (now) Aligned. The Autobot and Decepticon pages are lucky enough to not have to have a "franchise-of-origin" disambiguation parenthetical, but Predacon (Prime) is not. ....long story short, I think Kre-O Predacons can go on this page, because this is the page for This Cross-Continuity Iteration Of Predacons. --ItsWalky 20:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Since it's all evidently under the Beast Hunters umbrella, why not just "Predacon (Beast Hunters)"?--Carrion 21:48, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Because Beast Hunters is a sub-franchise of Prime. The full title is "Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters". -- spyder^{Use this!} 22:33, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

Except that these new Kre-O sets also sport the Beast Hunters sub-franchise logo. And they said at the NYCC panel that it's gonna be the 2013 theme of not just the Prime franschise but the whole Transformers brand itself. --Sabrblade 14:42, 16 October 2012 (EDT)

Members and plot

I'm not real clear on what the preferred format is for subgroup pages, so would it be appropriate to have a list of members as they appear in the show/books, and would info on the Predacon's goals that would be spoilers for recent materials be appropriate for the lead, or does it need to remain within a synopsis until the spoilers expire?KrytenKoro 14:56, 4 December 2012 (EST)

Well, I went ahead and added the stuff that's already mentioned on the wiki, figuring that can't be too bad. Should Swoop count as a temporary member?KrytenKoro 00:27, 12 February 2013 (EST)

I still think we're artificially merging the concepts of the Predacons and the Forged. Being turned into one of the Forged didn't make Swoop a Predacon, nor were the Forged ever stated to all be Predacons. All of the Forged have been modified to be loyal to Shockwave, but we don't really know what else. Ser-Ket and Backbite are the only two that have displayed beast modes.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:40, 12 February 2013 (EST)

Oh, I guess I misunderstood the comic book, then. I am missing #2, so...yeah. Oops!

Also, apparently there's some kind of Beast Hunters guidebook written from Shockwave's point of view that's been published. Anyone know if (1) that's kosher for inclusion and (2) the character mentioned within it who is not already on this page is okay to be added? (I don't want to spoil anything that's not already on the wiki)KrytenKoro 00:52, 12 February 2013 (EST)

That was a pamphlet handed out to folks at ToyFair to hype upcoming releases. As far as I know it's entirely kosher.--Rosicrucian^Talk 01:01, 12 February 2013 (EST)

When I asked about that pamphlet, one of the Hasbro presenters said that it was an internal document that was meant to pump the team up for Beast Hunters, and that later it was apparently used as a giveaway in Hong Kong, which they didn't find out about it until it hit the internet. We did not receive it for attending US Toy Fair 2013. --Monzo 01:19, 12 February 2013 (EST)

If...it's not meant to ever be given out in English, and was released officially in Hong Kong...does it loophole back to usable?KrytenKoro 02:30, 12 February 2013 (EST)

Well with this information it was certainly intended to be given out in English, just not in North America. Hasbro Asia is still an official channel, and thus it ought to still be kosher. It's not a leak.--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:14, 12 February 2013 (EST)

In regards to the Forged, the latest description of Rage of the Dinobots seems to indicate that they are Predacons, possibly that Shockwave is one as well. (Of course, the blurb holds no water next to the comic, but just bringing this up).

DINOBOT WAR! GRIMLOCK leads the DINOBOTS against SHOCKWAVE's troops-and the results won't be pretty! With SWOOP under SER-KET's control, it's an all-or-nothing battle of DINOBOT versus PREDACON-with the fate of CYBERTRON hanging on every punch, blast, jab, and bite! Don't miss the senses-shattering conclusion to this mind-blowing miniseries!

Go! Predacon subgroup name

The grouping of Bakudora, Budora, Gaidora, and Judora is referred to as 四鬼衆 (Shikishū). The first two kanji are easily translatable as "Four Demon", but the last one leaves me scratching my head. I'm not really sure how to translate it in conjunction to the "Four Demon" part. (In case you're wondering, the Goraadora components are Jaki.) Mimi 23:12, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

Hmm, pretending no language/translation knowledge but "masses" "great numbers" would the English word "Horde" work at all? "Four Demon Horde" sounds like a thing...--ZacWilliam 00:06, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

"Oni Army Predacons" is a term I've seen relatively often. With the surfacing of the above other term, I'm now questioning this one's validity. --Sabrblade 18:59, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

"鬼" is more often used to portray a ferocious ogre rather than what would be called a demon in the West, so I don't think "demon" is going to be the best here. Maybe "monster" or "ogre"?

Also, "四衆" is the "four orders of Buddhist followers" or "four assemblies", which this seems to me to be a play on. "The Four Monstrous Assemblies", maybe?KrytenKoro 11:07, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

"Oni" are pretty well known of in the Western World, so I'd say it'd be safe to keep that. After all, the word does refer to a specific kind of monster rather than just generic "ogres" or "demons". --Sabrblade 16:58, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

They aren't assemblies, though. They're just four guys. I assume the use of a group word here is modified by containing four guys, not being multiplied by four. -LV 17:25, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

So, they're the "Four Oni Predacons", then? Or should the word "Predacon" come first since it's written as such in Japanese? Something like the "Predacon Four Oni Army"? --Sabrblade 17:55, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

If "衆" reads as "army", then, yeah, that'd be what I would go with. I certainly think "oni" in the context of Go! in particular makes more sense than genericizing it. They are clearly oni; making them "monsters" would be like renaming the Swordbots the Knight Team and the Assassin Team. -LV 19:08, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm actually unsure if "衆" can be read as "army", since I only got that from other people rather than from a fully proper translation. Though, I do think "Four Oni Predacons" sounds nicer and not as clunky as "Predacon Four Oni (whatever)". But, if we must find a word for "衆", I'd hope for a way to make it sound good enough in English. --Sabrblade 01:11, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm a bit unclear on how the Predacons work in Go!, but it sounded like that they could make multiples of the Abominus-repaint. Are we sure they're not doing something similar with the four deluxe/voyager predacons, could they be templates or something?

"鬼" on its own refers to a specific type of yokai, but is often used in compounds to mean something not quite demonic but merely unfettered and monstrous, like the "Kishin" or "Fierce Deity" Link. "衆" isn't "army", though. It has no military connotation, it means "masses of people". Furthermore, it turns out the "Four Assemblies" thing isn't even the closest match! There is in fact a "Hachibukishuu" where the number is 8 rather than 4.

"ちなみに八部鬼衆は、乾闥婆・毘舎闍・鳩槃荼・薛茘多・那伽（龍）・富單那・夜叉・羅刹の名を挙げる。"

"Incidentally, Hachibukishu include Kendatsuba, Bishaja, Kuhanda, Heireita, Naga, Futanna, Yasha and Rasetsu (Rakshasa)."

The way it's described, it seems to be describing races of oni or other Buddhist demons/monsters.

A somewhat similar construction, "鬼道衆" (which is given as "Demoniac horde, rather than Demon horde) appears in Tokyo Majin.

Based on all that, I'd have to say the most accurate translations are either "The Four (Predacon) Hordes" (if there's more than one of each bodyform - this matches the form of the Buddhist analogy) or "The (Predacon) Horde of Four" (if we're absolutely sure there's only one of each).

On a side note, I'm confused as to how they are clearly Oni rather than just generic yokai or dragons. Can anyone help me out with that?KrytenKoro 14:16, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Because the episode itself calls them "Oni".

It also shows Gaidora, Judora, Budora, and Bakudora to be individuals while the Jaki are just generic fodder that Gaidora can seemingly make at will.

So, with "horde" in mind, I guess they'd be the "Predacon Four Oni Horde" or something? Or, if we go by how we refer to "Transformer Daisakusen" as "The Great Transformer War", maybe they'd be the "Four Predacon Oni Horde" or the "Four Oni Predacon Horde"? Actually, that last one kinda sounds like the best option. --Sabrblade 14:26, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Ah, okay, that context clarifies things immensely! Thanks.

"Horde", from what I've found, would be the compound kishuu, rather than just the shuu.

"Four Oni Predacon Horde" sounds kind of awkward to me, and sounds like it would confuse whether it's four individuals or four tribes. I'd reocmmend something like the "(Predacon) (Oni) Horde of Four", which flows a bit more naturally and communicates that the horde consists of four members, rather than beings four hordes. Or, if necessary, the "(Predacon) Four-Oni Horde".KrytenKoro 16:57, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

Also, "Horde of Four" sounds faintly like "hors d'oeuvres", which makes me giggle.KrytenKoro 16:58, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

I think it would be best to avoid as much of a mouthful title as possible. Though, I'm still skeptical on "Horde" for "shū", and if you say it's more for "kishū" instead of just "shū", then we might wanna think up something else. Out of curiosity, couldn't it just be the "Four Oni Predacons" if the "masses"/"multitude" connotation of "shū" could possibly translate out to just the plurality of the subject (which in this case would be the word "Predacon")? Or, does "shū" have to have its own word? --Sabrblade 00:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

It does seem reasonable to leave it out if it just means "group", because in English we don't normally have to specify that a number of related people are a group. "Four Oni Predacons" conveys the same sense as "Predacon Four Oni Group" when used as a proper noun. -LV 00:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The "Predacon Oni Quartet". It will save time if they later go into barbershop too. --abates 01:52, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I like that more than "Four Oni Predacons" or whatever. Mimi 02:06, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Wait, abates wasn't just making a joke?

Anyway, here's a new, but related question. How do we go about handling the components of Goradora? When Gaidora creates them, he speaks (what at least sounds like) the phrase, "Yami no Jaki domo" which Walruslaw subbed as "Jaki minions". On Japanese Wikipedia, the "Yami no Jaki" part is there too. But, what would the "domo" bit imply? And if we're to keep "Jaki" as is, what of the "Yami no" part? "Dark Jaki"? "Jaki of Darkness"? Would the "domo" part affect the translation in any manner? Did I even spell "domo" right? Could there be a macron above one or maybe both of the O's in "domo"? Gah, too many questions! --Sabrblade 02:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The implication that I was getting from the words used compared to historical usage of those components is that shu is not there just to imply plurality - simply having "shiki" would have had that meaning. I got the impression that they're trying to communicate that just these four guys together are like a rampaging horde of demons. Again, I've not seen the anime at all so if "Four-Oni Horde" is not an implication given by the material, then "Four Oni Predacons" would be fine...it's just a really odd construction to use for that.

"-domo" is usually a second or third-person plural implying seriously lower status of the subject respective to the speaker, so it's talking to them like they're the cannonfodder. "Yami no Jaki" is "Dark Devils/Imps/Evil Spirits"; with the banality implied by using "-domo", I'd suggest "Dark Imps" or some similar "demon-thing-what-gets-no-respect", like goblin or boogeyman.KrytenKoro 09:58, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The episode, unsubbed, is on YouTube to watch. Walruslaw's subbed version, however, can be downloaded from his Google docs account.

The four Preds in the anime are really not much of a horde, since the episode has only two of them taking part in the mission, despite all four having awakened together and being simultaneously active (the other two likely went on a different mission to be covered in the Swordbot Shinobi Team episode).

As for the Jaki, how well does the "Jaki minions" translation from the fansub work? It seems to be preferable to keep the word "Jaki" since, like "Oni", the episode called them that. Though, while "Dark Jaki" kinda sounds a little iffy, I get the impression that it's the most accurate sounding. --Sabrblade 10:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

What I meant in regards to horde was that it sounds like it's implying that each member is a "One-man horde", more ferocious than your average bear Oni. I mean, they are eons-old alien robot dragons, after all.

-domo is just a suffix like -sama. It indicates the level of respect given (in this case, none), and does not actually "mean" minion..it's more like "hey, you Jaki bastards over there, go do what I say". The name of the entities sounds like it's just "Yami no Jaki". My own style is that, if there's a reason to leave part of a Japanese name unWesternized, leave the kanji and hiragana parts as Romaji and only translate the katakana, so I would leave it as "Yami no Jaki" as the name and note the disrespectful usage in notes.KrytenKoro 14:35, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I think what might help us out the best would be for you to see the episode for yourself. Here it is in raw form, here it is with Chinese subtitles (if they're of any use to you), and here is the downloadable first fansubbed version from Walruslaw (he's done a revision of the subtitle script since, but it hasn't been finalized yet). --Sabrblade 17:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

So, after Sipher's firm speech about not needing to be fancy and being utilitarian in our name translations, "Four Oni Predacons" works well enough to get the point across without needing to beautify the term. But, there's still the matter of "Yami no Jaki" to deal with for the Goradora components. Are we to keep it as it is, or go with something like "Dark Jaki", "Jaki of Darkness", etc.? (This is important for the fansub) --Sabrblade 23:24, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

My opinion is that "Jaki" is primarily a word that doesn't have a good English analogue, but the modifier does. It therefore makes the most sense to me to render it as "Dark Jaki". I can't say I have an overly strong opinion on it, though. -LV 00:10, 12 July 2013 (EDT)

I'll try to watch the video today, Sabrblade, I'm sorry for the delay.KrytenKoro 14:25, 13 July 2013 (EDT)

The kanji "衆" is also used sometimes to indicate someone's "public" - IE, retainers, attendants, entourage. Such as the word "男衆". Given their role in the series, I think the best translation here is "Four Predacon Demon Attendants" or something along those lines.--BraveMax 05:59, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

But they're not just ordinary "demons", they're called "Oni" by the episode (we even use the word on the franchise page's notes section). Again, we've no need to make this look more pretty than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacons" is fine. --Sabrblade 18:31, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, leaving it "Oni" is pointless. Sure, most people into Anime know the term, and it may have originated as a specific type of Youkai (which, it's worth noting, was not a "type of demon" so much as something wholly unrelated - "youkai" doesn't mean "demon"), but it's a lot more general in common usage these days. I doubt they really intend anything more than just "demons/evil spirits/ogres". If you want to be super accurate, translate it "Ogre". Also, "Four Oni Predacons" leaves out the "衆" part of the meaning entirely. It should still be "Four Predacon Oni Attendants" or "Four Oni Predacon Attendants" or something like that even if you insist on keeping "Oni" for whatever reason. They're clearly meant to be Dragotron's right-hand henchmen.--BraveMax 20:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

The robot mode's heads are clearly designed to look like Oni, for whatever that's worth. I think "Oni" in this case might actually mean Oni, not merely a generic for "evil spirit" as is increasingly common. -Derik 01:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

You're missing the point again. Oni is easily translatable. So why leave it untranslated? Hasn't this wiki demonstrated a virulent dislike of leaving naked Japanese words in play? Also - my main point is the sub group name. Not whether we call them Onis/Ogres/Demons/Frank/Barrack Obama.--BraveMax 04:08, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

And I tend to agree -- naked Japanese is bad, it usually represents an inability to reach a consensus, so everyone "agrees" to just render the name non-useful.

However one of the features of this debate is whether or not the term "oni" is being used to in the specific sense or the generic sense... as it has become common to use "Oni" to mean "Demon" in recent years. I was pointing out that the heads of the toys actually do seem to resemble Oni, which is a tic in favor of the word. -Derik 11:04, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

I think what we have here is basically a play on "Four Man Army," and whatever translation we settle on should reflect that.

Honestly I'd go with "Four Cardinal Terrors" as capturing the spirit of the original without cleaving to the actual words. Translation isn't a word-for-word thing... these words are a venn-diagram whose overlap contains the intended meaning. The question is how to express that.

"Cardinal" because... hell, I don't know...! Cardinal directions, north, south, east and west? Army isn't right, horde isn't quite right... I think there's a "completeness unto itself" going on here that expresses the idea that these for, collectively, are some sort of prime exemplar -- The Four Demon Army, the definitive article, with each unit contributing to a greater whole.

Four 'Mon Army. It's punny in a way that captures the core idea in a way that translates well to western sensibilities. If this were an episode title, I honestyly think we'd render it this way.

Alas it is not, so we won't. I'm still advocating "Four Cardinal Terrors," or that we at least consider that "basic, fundamental, greatest, highest..." is somewhere int he mix of the idea being expressed even though no individual word translates that way.

(Derik has ideas about Transformers.) -Derik 00:39, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

I really don't think we need to make this any more fancy than it needs to be. Keeping it as simple and basic as it can be would help the masses understand it better. Now, if we really do need to find a term for 衆 beyond a mere pluralization of "Predacons", then how about "Unit"? Or "Force(s)"? Something to keep the whole thing from being more of a mouthful than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacon Unit/Force(s)", "Predacon Four Oni Unit/Force(s)", "Four Predacon Oni Unit/Force(s)"? Though, not in the use of a military connotation (as Kryten noted above that 衆 has none--which also throws "army" right out), but simply of them being part of the same group/team. --Sabrblade 14:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

Okay, watched it.

1. It could possibly be Regen Disc, I dunno.
2. Erg...flashbacks to Digimon Xros Wars. Especially based on that, I would not picture "Predacon" as part of the name (see this similar intro screen). 衆 means "people" in the most general way - no implication beyond masses. That being said, they are clearly called "Oni" and their helmets are styled after traditional Oni, so yeah, "Four-Oni Horde" or "Four Onis" would both be accurate translations.
3. He drops the "Yami no" and "-dono" later, so I'm not sure the official name is anything other than "Jaki". Gaidora is just using language-toward-an-inferior each time he calls on them, so I think "Dark Jaki" would be best, to fit with the "Four Onis".

KrytenKoro 22:49, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

"Predacon" is in the title since the full text above the names of both Budora and Gaidora reads as プレダコン四鬼衆 (Puredacon Shikishū). So... "Four Oni Predacons", after all?

As for "Yami no Jaki-dono", I just figured his dropping the rest of it was to refer to "Jaki Gattai" as its own term. As in "The Yami no Jaki-dono were brought together in a Jaki Gattai." Sorta like how one could say "The Swordbots were brought together in a Sanjou Gattai." --Sabrblade 23:23, 15 July 2013 (EDT)

"Predacon Four Demon Unit." Or possibly "Four Demon Force" are my recommendation. Simple, to the point. Rather than winge about what best conveys some admittedly ambiguous meaning you just go for the most neutral term possible. Or "Four Oni Band," "Four Demons Crew" (I think the pluralization of demons there actually helps the name hold together better)

Is there a reason we can't just use "Demon Quartet"? Folding four+group into one word makes it read way, waaay better in English. -Derik 02:15, 16 July 2013 (EDT)

What I meant in regards to "Predacon" is that this format is exactly the same as in Digimon Xros Wars, in which they would say something like "Bagra Army Death General: Apollomon" or "Bagra Army Mysterious Assassin: Baalmon", with the post-Army bit being the actual name of that group. It doesn't seem to be a necessity to shoehorn "Predacon" in there, so I recommend we don't.

For Jaki, I heard "Jaki Gattai da," which sounds like a command for the Jaki to Gattai, using informal speech (as with -dono), rather than a counterpart to Swordbot Fusion. I have bad hearing, though, so I won't fight that point.

The character's grandpa clearly calls the Predacons "Oni", so I have to retract my earlier claims that it could be translated into English as "Ogre" or "Monster". "Oni Quartet" would fit, though.KrytenKoro 09:49, 16 July 2013 (EDT)

You are right that he does say "Gattai da". I hadn't caught that until now. So, First "Dark Jaki" and then just "Jaki", right?

Even in the subs of Xros Wars, the "Bagra Army" part of the title was subbed. And, the difference between that and this is that the Bagra Army titles referred to specific unique individuals, whereas this title refers to a group of individuals. A better argument could be made if Tactimon's title read as "Bagra Army Three Head Officers", but it instead reads as "Bagra Army Head Officer". If the "Four" part wasn't here, then the comparison would hold more weight, but it is here so it makes a difference.

Plus, not every Bagra Army member's titled even had the "Bagra Army" part written in it. Dorbickmon's title in episode 32 was just "Death General", Apollomon's in episode 45 was just "Sun General" (?), and some are just "Bagra Army" without their personal titles. Very inconsistent, if you ask me. Whereas the titles of both Gaidora and Budora consistently make use of "Predacon" each time.

Not to mention that, on Japanese Wikipedia's page for the series, the full title of the group ("Predacon" and all) is repeated for each member, and even for Goradora, never shortening it to remove the "Predacon" part even though it's been stated clearly that they are Predacons. Whereas, Japanese Wikipedia's Xros Wars character page doesn't repeat "Bagra Army" for each member's title like the "Predacon" part of "Predacon Shikishū". --Sabrblade 10:32, 16 July 2013 (EDT)

However, I can think of a reasonable compromise that let's "Predacon" able to be kept or dropped depending on the situation. If we put the word at the beginning, we could say "the Predacon Four Oni 衆" or "the Four Oni 衆". Over on Allspark, Derik suggested "Clan" for 衆, but does it fit? --Sabrblade 00:53, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

"Clan" is a terrible translation. It's nearly always 一族 (ichizoku). I still think "Predacon Oni Quartet" sounds better. Mimi 01:02, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

"Quartet" just doesn't sound right for these guys, as the connotations related to it evoke something as silly as a barbershop quartet. It sounds less intimidating and powerful than the more universal/neutral term of just "Four". "Quartet" works more for a non-threatening group, which these guys are meant to be anything but. --Sabrblade 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

Just pluralizing Oni is totally acceptable. "shu" really doesn't mean anything beyond "we got more than a few people here, bro." We don't need to get fancy with it if we don't want to.KrytenKoro 00:56, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

Alrighty, then. Though, after looking up all those "Bagra Army" mentions and lacks thereof, I'm actually now curious as to whether プレダコン四鬼衆 has ever been rendered as just 四鬼衆 in any official medium, or always fully as プレダコン四鬼衆 (like the Japanese Wikipedia gave the impression of it being). If there is a mention anywhere of the title that lacks the "Predacon" part, then I think we could go with "Predacon Four Oni"/"Four Oni" (or maybe even "Predacon Oni Four"/"Oni Four"). But if it's always rendered with "Predacon" included, then I'd opt for "Four Oni Predacons". I found a photo of Gaidora's packaging bio, and a magazine scan with a description of Gaidora. Can you make out if the title is mentioned in either of these at all and if it does or doesn't include "Predacon"? --Sabrblade 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

In both cases there are parts where 四鬼衆 is used without prefacing it with "Predacon". That being said... From a Japanese perspective, there's no reason to include "衆" at the end if it doesn't impart meaning - it's grammatically unnecessary. I think you're missing something by just going with "Oni Quartet". At this point, though, I should think I've made my preferred translation quite clear: www.metasubs.net.--BraveMax 02:21, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

There's a historical example of the exact same compound but with different numbers, which translates as "The Eight Legions". The only compounds I can find with an attendant implication are those that use it euphemistically, as a rich man would have "his men". Furthermore, they fight for Dragotron, they aren't shown attending to him.KrytenKoro 09:49, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

Dragotron isn't even fully awake yet. It's clear that they're doing his bidding/attempting to awaken him. Also, Gaidora is referred to on his packaging as "one" of the 四鬼衆. So... What... He's one of the four legions? That translation makes no sense. We have evidence of FOUR Oni Predacons - not four legions of them.--BraveMax 23:04, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm not suggesting it be "four legions", just pointing at the relevant translations also just focusing on plurality of people, not any specific role for them. Gaidora is one of the Four Onis, there's no need to incorporate connotations that aren't present in similar words or the fiction itself. "Attendant" generally doesn't imply "someone who's doing things for you", it's connotation is more someone who focuses on making you comfortable. Your soldiers generally aren't described as your attendants.KrytenKoro 11:53, 19 July 2013 (EDT)

As an aside, "Oni" is both singular and plural. "Onis" is an improper use of the word. --Sabrblade 12:46, 19 July 2013 (EDT)

As Sabrblade pointed out, Japanese grammar doesn't work that way. There IS no plural in Japanese in most cases. Adding an "s" at the end of Japanese words or words translated from Japanese is an affectation from people translating to English, which DOES have plurals. If they wanted it to be "The four oni", they would have made the title "四鬼". That "衆" cannot simply "pluralize" the term. It MUST impart some additional meaning to "鬼" here. The only valid point of discussion is what that additional meaning is. As "鬼衆" isn't an extant compound (as far as any of us have found), it must be one TakaraTomy made up, and it must be reasonably easy for the audience to guess the meaning for. So, we're simply looking at the most likely meanings of the compound. The meaning "Oni legions" or "Oni populace" doesn't make sense (given that they tell us up front that there are only 4 of them), but having them be Dragotron's footmen or servants DOES. Especially as an honorary title. Regardless of what they actually do, they might be viewed by the rest of the army has his attendants or servants. His "right-hand men".--BraveMax 23:15, 19 July 2013 (EDT)

Watching an old episode of Digimon Tamers, I noticed that the word was used to refer to a "people" (which the subs correctly translated it as). However "Four Oni People" sounds wonky enough to leave the "people" part redundant and unecessary since Oni can already be viewed as a people without needing the word to tell us such, so... yeah. --Sabrblade 01:49, 20 July 2013 (EDT)

Pretty sure that's not what Sabrblade was pointing out (merely that I had misspelled Oni as "Onis"). And...I've said a lot of times that it's an extant compound. I've provided historical usages of the compound where the only thing that differs is the number at the front. Dude, the kanji simply doesn't imply "role", it implies a mass of people. Using it as a pluralizer (which Japanese does use kanji for, in several cases) is absolutely normal and acceptable.

In addition, using the "legions" translation, our term would just be "The Four Legions", not "Oni legions" or anything. Again, the historical usage of the compound gives a faint connotation of one-men armies, but simply pluralizing it as "Four Oni" gets the same point across.KrytenKoro 13:02, 20 July 2013 (EDT)

You've provided ONE historical usage of the compound "鬼衆". "八部鬼衆", right? It refers to 8 legions of "fierce god" servants of the Shitennou. That compound is using "部" (division, section) and "衆" to indicate "legions" (divided masses). You and I both know that kanji often have multiple shades of meaning, but generally mean similar things when put into similar conjunctions. If TakaraTomy wanted to make these the "4 oni legions" or "four oni legionnaires", why not finish out the pattern? Why not "四部鬼衆"? If anything, following that logic this title should be "Four demon horde". IE, a horde comprised of four demons. But even in the examples you provided (and in similar ones from Buddhism - "四部衆" and "八部衆") we're talking about groups of SERVANTS and protectors. They're attendants, essentially. I'd argue that connotation makes a lot more sense than them simply being a "four demon horde". As for pluralization via kanji... It happens in specific and limited instances, such as when you need to specify that information applies to ALL of ____. Generally not to simply add an "s" onto something like we would in English, and especially not when it's a simple counter. IE, you might say "Sensei-tachi" (Because you specifically want to include ALL of the teachers in your comment), but you'd never say "Sensei Yon-nin-tachi".--BraveMax 09:02, 21 July 2013 (EDT)

Since you mention the Shitennou, I've been told (well, it felt more like being "lectured", really) that an alternate translation to refer to the "Four Heavenly Kings" would be as the "Four Generals". In a sense, these four Predacons feel sort of like to Dragotron what the Shitennou were to their master, as in, they'd be something like Dragotron's "Four Oni Generals". But, that's probably not an accurate translation that we could use (man, this is tricky). --Sabrblade 18:21, 21 July 2013 (EDT)

I already suggested all of that earlier in the thread, and modified my suggestion based on the discussion you can read above. What I've been trying to explain with the "attendant" thing is that there's neither fictional context nor historical precedent to highlight it as the best choice, and it's not a literal translation so we don't have to choose it. You can view the characters as attendants if you squint, but if you had to pick a word off the top of your head, "attendant" wouldn't be it, and the title doesn't require it either. We can cover historical precedent, literal translation, and fictional context sufficiently with "Four Oni", in my mind, plus it fits well with "Dark Jaki".KrytenKoro 02:11, 22 July 2013 (EDT)

Well - I feel like we've both made out points clear. I don't think we're going to agree on this. Personally, I kind of feel like we need a higher authority to settle this. For me, that means asking around to some of my English-speaking Japanese friends. Another option that's been mentioned is asking Hydra ;)--BraveMax 06:11, 23 July 2013 (EDT)

Houston, we have some answers! I talked to Hydra about both this and several Transformers Go! terms, to which he gave the following responses. --Sabrblade 10:02, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

So:

• Predacon Four Oni/Fearsome Four
• Dark Imps/Dark Goblins
• Triple Combination/Threefold Combination
• Legendisc
• Emergency Dualblade Style
• Super-aero Longblade Style*
• Firefighting Assault Style
• Zan, Jin, Gin

Regarding the first three, I suggest Four Oni, Dark Imps, and Threefold Combination, per the reasons I'd discussed elsewhere. Regarding Super-aero, WWWJDIC lists that Choukuukan and Choukuudou (超空間 and 超空洞, respectively) are "hyperspace" and "void"...while Jinbu is a jet, he is pretty spaceshippy and I think "Hyperspace Longblade Style" might capture that, as well as the super-speed Hydra mentioned. If not that, then perhaps wiggle it a bit to "Machspeed Longblade Style"?KrytenKoro 14:18, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

"Triple" is what's been chosen, works, is most recognizable, and therefore seems to be what this Wiki is going to stick with.

"Four Oni" suffices. "Fearsome Four" was just what Hydra said he would call them if he, personally, were to localize the name in an English version, but we're not localizing, we're translating.

For GoJinbu's attack, Jinbu's meant to be a fighter jet. The "Hyperspace" suggestion has been considered, but rejected as explained better here. --Sabrblade 16:21, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

In my opinion, metasubs does not give a satisfying rationale on this matter at all, as it seems to amount to ignoring the available context. Especially if we're going for a "literal" translation, "High-flying" is, well, not it. (That being said, although I acknowledged earlier that Jinbu is based on a fighter jet, he is still first and foremost a space alien, nevermind that tons of characters in anime get "Meteor" etc. attacks without being spacefaring.)

Since the discussion on Sanjou is closed, I'll not push it, although I maintain that Threefold was the better choice.KrytenKoro 18:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Which is why it'll probably be changed to something more fitting than "High-flying". I've asked BraveMax to chime in about it, so let's wait and see. --Sabrblade 19:07, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

"Oni" and frankly, I'd stick with "Jaki" over "imps" or "goblins" since this series is hyper-damn-Japanesey. --M Sipher 18:52, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

After my conversing with Hydra on the matter, he spelled out how "Jaki" is far more generic and non-special than "Oni" are, pretty much just referring to any ordinary minor demon or evil spirit ("Imps" and "Goblins" were his suggestions), rather than any specific breed of creature from Japanese folklore. --Sabrblade 19:04, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Actually, I've got no intention of changing "High-flying" just yet. "超空" is used in some space-related compounds, but I just haven't found anything that I like that remotely fits with the samurai theme or Jinbu's character. Regardless of whether or not they're space aliens, they react like they've never seen modern vehicles before when they make their initial appearance - it doesn't make sense to say he uses a "hyperspace" based style when he barely knows what a jet is. Hydra's suggestion of "super-aero" is probably the best alternative so far, but I think he's wrong about it relating more to high-speed than high-altitude. Superaerodynamics refers to the study of aerodynamics at high altitudes, so without the "dynamics", "super-aero" just means "high-altitude flight" - "High-flying". The other two examples I provide ("Universe", essentially, and "Hyperspace") both basically refer to higher and higher levels of flight, not necessarily speed. I do get what he's saying, and certainly a speed-related translation would fit Jinbu's motif, but "super-aero" doesn't do it for me, and neither does "hyperspace". Until I find something better with the right nuance... I'm sticking with "High-flying".--BraveMax 21:01, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

How about just... "Soaring"? As, it refers to flying at a decently high altitude. --Sabrblade 22:11, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

Yes... But it's also utterly unrelated to speed :-p--BraveMax 22:41, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

No, "soaring" is a pretty standard synonym for "moving pretty damn fast".KrytenKoro 10:23, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

Webster's disagrees: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soar--BraveMax 10:30, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

It confuses me that Webster disagrees, because the usage is pretty common: see Wiktionary's (4). I suppose Webster approximates that with their (2), though.KrytenKoro 09:58, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

Top list

Should the list at the top include the BS and Kre-O alternate continuity versions listed lower on the page? Should we even consider those separate continuity versions? Should we at least include the Kre-O Stormrazor and Corhada, since those don't appear in the normal continuity?KrytenKoro 10:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Also the Kre-O versions of the G1 Predacons seem to be regarded as Kre-O Predacons (The Predacon skin on kre-o-nation.com features Predaking and Headlock). Though Rampage,the blindpack dude, is named "Decepticon Rampage", so I don't know where that leaves him. Maybe we need to have a Predacon (Kre-O) article. --abates 21:32, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

Dragotron

Is Dragotron definitely the same being as Predaking, just in a separate continuity? With every other Predacon being a new character, I feel like Dragotron should be one too.KrytenKoro 10:00, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

Everything has presented him as Predaking. We're even told Go! starts after the defeat of Dragotron during Beast Hunters. I don't expect BH to actually end with Predaking buried in a mountain in Japan in the form of FOC Frenzy, but if we're lucky, it'll be vague enough to kinda-sorta line up. Of course, if we later find that Dragotron in Go! has been in that mountain since the twelfth century, and the early writeups were confused or wrong, then it's probably time to make him a new guy. -LV 10:24, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

I think the issue comes with how Predaking in Beast Hunters has been revealed to be a noble and compassionate villain, instead of the monstrous tyrant bent on destruction that his toy bios have made him out to be. Since the Go! backstory was likely conceived well before the season 3 cartoon was completed, Takara was likewise likely unaware of the cartoon making Predaking out to be not as evil as his bios made him seem. At best, I think we can assume that Dragotron may evoke the Toy Bio/Tales of the Beast Hunters portrayal of Predaking rather than the cartoon portrayal. But, if enough people think we ought to split the two a la the characters from Masterforce and Beast Wars II vs. their Hasbro counterparts, then I would not object to such a split. As of now, though, I'm content either way. --Sabrblade 11:59, 17 July 2013 (EDT)

I find it pointless to split two guys who look exactly the same and serve the same function as leader of the Predacons. Mimi 04:36, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I am unwilling to make a split now. Let's wait to see what else Go! has in store for us as far as "Dragotron" is concerned. Not that I expect a hell of a lot of depth... --M Sipher 05:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I was wondering about this too, and it's connected with a question I have that I realised I didn't know the answer to when watching Go - are the Predaons that appear in Go some of Shockwave's clones, left over from Beast Hunters, or are they some of the original Earthbound Predacons that have survived into the present day, awakening from stasis at the start of the episode? The connections to the ancient past that the existence of the Legendisc seems to weave into the show made me think it was the latter, and if that's the case, then Dragotron is presumably one of those survivors too, and not Predaking. I mean, isn't the idea that Predaking was sealed into a Legendisc by Optimus in the pre-Go/BH-finale backstory? Not buried in a mountain. And even if he was, there's something supremely undramatic about being buried in a mountain for basically a long weekend before a kid wakes you up. - Chris McFeely 11:52, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

Very good points. It's mostly a "wait and see" deal, at this point. --Sabrblade 12:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

There's also the whole oni connection with the Predacons, which looks to me to be implying that these guys are the original inspiration for the mythical creatures, much like how the Prime cartoon was saying dragon myths are inspired by Predacons. Jalaguy 12:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

"Beast Hunters" didn't happen in Japan, right? They ceased broadcast after the end of Season 2? That means that Predacons haven't appeared at all in the Japanese Prime Continuity until TF: Go!. Maybe we're trying too hard to connect this show to something it was never meant to be connected to. For all we know, these are the ONLY Predacons in the Japanese Prime Continuity.--BraveMax 20:07, 13 August 2013 (EDT)

Agreed. This looks like another Rebirth/The Headmasters situation where we get two different interpretations of the same characters. Mimi 20:21, 13 August 2013 (EDT)

That's something I've been thinking about, yes. Is Dragotron a case like Chromedome, whose American and Japanese portrayals are so wildly different yet each is regarded here as being two versions of the same character; or is Dragotron a case like the cast of Masterforce whose portrayals are just as wildly diverse between the Western and Eastern versions as Chromedome's are and yet are treated as completely separate characters between each version? There is also the difference in the names of "Predaking" and "Dragotron" when Takara has mostly fully converted to using the same names that Hasbro uses. I mean, in terms based on the "Character" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --Sabrblade 21:46, 13 August 2013 (EDT)

So the question, then, is is that enough to make him a different character? Unfortunately, we might not get an official word on that until we get some kind of confirmation on whether or not the events of BH happened in the TF: GO! continuity. Not that there's really enough characterization to him at the moment for him to really be worth a separate page... Are there any other examples of the same toy being released as two separate things by T-T and Hasbro?--BraveMax 01:17, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

EDIT: It seems like the Energon upgrade characters provide SOME precedence for splitting Dragotron from Predaking: Overcast_(Energon)--BraveMax 01:27, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

It seems like a given that Japan will eventually get BH. If and when they do, it ought to clear this up. In the meantime, I don't think we have enough to bother splitting the page. The Energon Energon redecoes were a much more open-and-shut case, because the appearances in the show were incontrovertibly the old guys, and the tech spec characters were incontrovertibly new characters. -LV 09:38, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

A better example of what you asked about, BraveMax, would be like Landmine and Lander, Cloudburst and Phoenix, Getaway and Lightfoot, Slapdash and Road King, Hosehead and Cab, Apex Bomber and Godbomber, Bomb-Burst and Blood, Skullgrin and Dauros, Submarauder and Gilmer, Fangry and Wilder, Horri-Bull and Bullhorn, Squeezeplay and Cancer, the G1 Seacons and the Masterforce Seacons, B'Boom and Apache, Snarl and Tasmania Kid, Powerpinch and Scissor Boy, Injector and Rartorata, etc. All pairs share the same toy with identical decos, but are considered separate characters. --Sabrblade 11:20, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

Thanks Sabr! LV - what makes you say "it seems like Japan will get BH"? They're releasing the toys NOW, and Takara has clearly bet the farm on TFGO! (It's all you really see around here, aside from the dregs of Prime, these days). What's more, there's new "easy product" coming next year in the form of the 4th movie and whatever the next American TF show is... So... Has there been any evidence that they're considering releasing BH? It's not like other shows where they could dub it over later and act like it's a totally unrelated show - it picks up from the ending of Prime Season 2, which was heavily edited for the Japanese broadcast in such a way that it may not even fit the events of Season 3, and it's not like they're going to re-release the toys. I think there's much more evidence that Prime simply flopped in Japan, and Takara didn't want to prolong a failed experiment.--BraveMax 21:21, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

On the other hand (from what I was saying before), there are cases like the aforementioned Chromedome who seem to get a new backstory/characterization with each new portrayal. I mean... just look at that intro paragraph of his. >_< --Sabrblade 22:10, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

What was the last TV fiction Hasbro paid for that Takara didn't find a way to use? I can't think of anything but Rescue Bots and Go-Bots since Rebirth. -LV 22:47, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

True, and true. But we've never quite faced circumstances like these either. I suppose this is another thing we'll just have to wait and see on :-p--BraveMax 23:56, 14 August 2013 (EDT)

Which is all I was saying. I suspect we will end up having to split them, because like the Energon recolors, and unlike the Headmasters, Predaking and Dragotron exist in what is more or less the same continuity. But if Dragotron's information is retroactively incorrectly on Predaking's page for six months, I'm pretty sure it's not the end of th world. (FWIW, I definitely don't think Takara started out intending to make them different guys, because otherwise I assume Predaking's new name would have been Somethingdora.) -LV 08:32, 15 August 2013 (EDT)

I don't see why Takara didn't just call him "Predaking" in the first place if they did want him to be the same guy. After all, he's still the leader, or "king", of the Predacons in Go!, anyway. What purpose his being renaming "Dragotron" serves if he is supposed to be the same guy, and in an age of Takara using Hasbro names, is completely beyond me. --Sabrblade 11:24, 15 August 2013 (EDT)

It wouldn't be TakaraTomy without a "what the hell?" move. There's always something small but baffling going on there. --M Sipher 12:03, 15 August 2013 (EDT)

But in all seriousness... for whatever reason, Go! is clearly meant to be a complete style/tone-shift away from What America Is Doing. They can't really change the returning characters' names (well they could like they did in Super Link but aren't), but anyone who wasn't in the first two seasons of Prime is fair game. And one can't help but notice that despite the toyline being full of Prime show-characters... the fiction? Not so much. Or at all. And they're certainly getting just kinda quietly shoved out there toyline-wise... all the big promo stuff is on the NEW NEW NEW guys. Yeah, I don't get why "Dragotron" doesn't have a more Japanesey name like the rest of the Preds, but that might just be a holdover from early development that never got changed. --M Sipher 12:27, 15 August 2013 (EDT)

Personality-wise, Predaking and Dragotron don't seem to be the same. Predaking is almost totally focused on resurrecting his race, and doesn't give a damn about conquering anything; Dragotron does, unless there's supposed to be some subtext about resurrecting the rest of the Predacons. Add that to their incompatible plotlines and how all the other Go! Predacons are distinct, and I really think we can justify a split already, even before the movie comes out.KrytenKoro 18:33, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

On the other hand, "Tales of the Beast Hunters" has Predaking being the ruthless tyrant his toy bios describe him as being, which is reflected in Dragotron's character. I guess it depends on how much we want to regard the toy bios and "Tales" stories vs. the Prime cartoon itself.

Like I mentioned above, in terms based on the "Character" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same basic role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --Sabrblade 18:40, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

Round 2

Now that we've had more info about Dragotron and the Go! series itself, I think we have enough information to make an educated decision as to whether Dragotron should or shouldn't be considered the same character as Predaking. And I'm putting my vote into splitting the two, based on how we have the Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters being separate from their Hasbro counterparts. While this make sense for the characters of those series whose are portrayed significantly different from the Hasbro versions, there are still those like Blood and Bomb-Burst who aren't all that memorably different aside from their backstories, but are still considered separate on here. But if their minute differences are enough to warrant separate pages, I see no reason why Dragotron can't also be separated from Predaking, as Dragotron's similarities to Predaking are only basic and generic. What's more is that, up until recently, it seemed like the main reason for keeping the two together was the presumption that Go! would be a sequel to Prime Beast Hunters, with the latter ending in a way that could possibly set things up for the former. However, with the Go! fiction virtually ignoring Beast Hunters altogether, as the third season of the Prime cartoon never came to Japan, the new backstory created for Dragotron is nigh-irreconcilable with Hasbro's backstory for Predaking, with the only similarity between the two character origins being "Shockwave created him" while all other specifics differ drastically. Dragotron's official toy bio even specifies that he possesses the ability to transcend time and space, and that his power is connected to the Earthlings, neither of which qualify for Predaking as established by Hasbro. Now, while one could say that this is all just a case similar to, say, G1 Chromedome's differing American and Japanese portrayals, the fact that Takara even went as far as giving Dragotron his own name (in an age where Takara now almost firmly uses Hasbro names) along with his new identity (rather than just recycling and reapplying the name "Predaking" to this new portrayal) suggests that they intended for Dragotron to be his own entity separate from Hasbro's Predaking character, not unlike the aforementioned Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters that we likewise treat as their own characters. Also helps that every single one of Dragotron's minions were likewise given new names and identities (and heads, in four cases), so it would make sense for him to follow in suit. And, really, do we honestly want another character page like Chromedome's that requires us to use multiversal excuses explanations to reconcile the stark differences between the American and Japanese versions of the character? The fact that season 3 of Prime doesn't exist in Go!'s continuity is also a big indicator here since Predaking is inherently tied to Beast Hunters and, aside from him and Dragotron sharing the same toy mold and a similar Predacon leader role, it makes little sense to connect the two together when Dragotron exists in a continuity that willfully ignores and contradicts the entire reason for Predaking's very existence as a character, and which established him as a noble patriot rather than the "Demon Emperor" Dragotron has been set up to be. (As an aside, the absence of season 3 also nullifies episode 57's "Predaclones being on Earth in the past" plot point from existing in the Japanese Prime continuity, as well.) So, yeah, I vote "Yes" to splitting the two. --Sabrblade 22:03, 22 October 2013 (EDT)

I have no opposition at this point. -LV 23:40, 22 October 2013 (EDT)

Basically. --ItsWalky 00:35, 23 October 2013 (EDT)

That was a wall of text, wasn't it? I agree, though. We're beyond "Headmasters" vs "Rebirth" territory on this one. -hx 10:28, 23 October 2013 (EDT)

I've gone and started the Dragotron page, but I can't continue with further edits to links and such at the moment since I have to be going. Anyone willing to pitch in is free to do so. I shall return in about five hours. --Sabrblade 12:45, 23 October 2013 (EDT)

'Bout time! W00t!--BraveMax 01:13, 24 October 2013 (EDT)

A new theory, but possibly too late. Considering that BH says that Shockwave made Predacons for prehistoric Earth, is it possible that Dragatron is the first cloned Predaking, thus being more like the original savage one? I understand this doesn’t help the name section, but as has been said before, it’s Takara Tomy we are talking about. The event would be before RID and after Predacons Rising. Lost to time, but with the power of the lLegend Discs they were able to survive. Since it’ isn’t known whether the OG Earth Predacons could transform, Iwould say they could, their beast modes inspiring various dragons, and their robot modes the Oni in Japan, and possibly (this is somewhat offtopic) the Minotaur Of Greece, and things as such. Sonatronus, they new Galvatron (talk) 04:38, 13 January 2020 (EST)

Are Goradora/his components actually Predacons?

Okay, so the Go! show makes it clear that the little jaki/imp guys who form Goradora are generic minion things that the oni Predacons can magic up from cars and stuff. In which case, do they actually count as Predacons in the sense of being members of an ancient species of dragon guys? Are they ever described as such on the show or their packaging? Jalaguy 07:40, 26 July 2013 (EDT)

For the show portrayal, I don't think episode 1 is enough to go by, so we'll have to wait for more episodes to surface. For the packaging, it hasn't come out yet so we've yet to see any pics of it or the bio. So... I guess it's simply to early to tell either way at this point. --Sabrblade 10:01, 26 July 2013 (EDT)

If lab-born clones can be Predacons... --M Sipher 15:38, 26 July 2013 (EDT)

I think the idea that they wouldn't be described as Predacons on the toy packaging is a little ridiculous. Mimi 01:33, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

[1] <- Link to his package art. He's a Predacon :)--BraveMax 08:19, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

Corhada and Stormrazor

Are those referring to the Kre-O guys, or am I missing something?

On a related note, I'm pretty sure Kre-O Stormrazor is the Kre-O version of Skystalker, since early solicits for BH Deluxe Wave 3 named Stormrazor, Ratchet and Dreadwing. Jalaguy 04:17, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm not sure who moved them up or why, but they probably do belong on the top list. After all, this isn't really "Predacons from Prime", it's "Predacons in the sense of Prime, where they're a third faction of dragons". Also, Kre-O Stormrazor was called Skystalker in the original PowerPoint slide. That seems to be a name that Hasbro was real indecisive about until the very end. That being said, Backbite is also identical to Skystalker, so what's one more? -LV 22:03, 13 August 2013 (EDT)

This combination of Prime and Kre-O characters on one page really doesn't seem right to me. --Khajidha 16:36, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

I have been wondering if we should change the title to "Predacon (species)". --abates 17:00, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

If we do that and have clear subsections for Prime and Kre-O it could work. As is, it's a mess. --18:28, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

Aren't the Predacons from Beast Wars also a species? I mean, we've seen no evidence that Maximal/Predacon breeding could produce viable offspring. --ItsWalky 18:32, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

Possibly, but the fact that they can make Predacons from Maximal protoforms, plus the numerous cases of faction switching simply by changing insignias and transformation codes, seem to suggest that Maximal and Predacon are factions rather than separate species. --abates 18:38, 5 September 2013 (EDT)