Talk:Technorganic

That two-page spread from TFU #1 should TOTALLY go in the "Technorganic Cybertron" section. That's some fucking GORGEOUS art there. --M Sipher 06:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In my edit I removed a statement that the technorganic healing abilities function better/faster in robot mode than in beast mode. Walky and I have no recollection of this. I'm inclined to think that, if they worked better in one mode than the other, it would have been the beast mode. Does anyone know whether this robot-healing thing was ever established someplace? It should be cited if it's put back in. --Steve-o 16:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My rough notes from watching through BM a couple years ago include the following:

BM Maximnals cannot use CR chambers. However-- BM's robot modes DO exert biologicly-enhanced nanosurgical capabilities, allowing them to quickheal, like Nightscream did his wing. They heal faster in ROBOT MODE

It's from... uh... revelations? (My next note in order is the Diagnostic Drone recognizing Tankor's old personality.)

note that Nightscream has th ability to quickheal even FASTER than the other Maximals when he's doing his vampire thing-- so I speculate their self-repair abilities are linked to their robot modes being at a higher 'energy level'. -Derik 23:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Technorganic transforming

Technorganic transforming's not entirely a shapeshifting-style transformation. Watch Primal's transformation in the premiere episode, and you can see how the "energy" merely changes the shape of his limbs. After that, recessed panels slide out. I belive this should go in the article as well. Darktruth 15:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

New section on usage errors

I sure hope folks like the new section what I wrote. --PacifistPrime

Where is this stuff coming from??

This article's got some rather oddly-phrased conclusions in it, taking single examples from the cartoon and unsupportably stating that they are illustrations of larger, well-known principles:

• Rather the spark appears simply to be diffused throughout the body and coalesces in the center of the chest or floats just outside of it when made to appear.
• Close contact and ingestion of anything purely organic will tilt their minds toward their primitive, "organic" side.
• their greatest weakness lies in the perfect but fragile balance between the two opposing sides of their nature.

I'd purge it all myself, but I wanna make sure there's not some outside source that's stating all this more clearly than the events of the cartoon did. Also, am I the only one who finds this article way too long and rambling in its current state? -- Repowers 15:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"Also, am I the only one who finds this article way too long and rambling in its current state?" You aren't. And the sections PacifistPrime keep adding aren't helping. This article needs an overhaul. —Interrobang 03:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Primal said ingesting the purely organic fruit had devolved the Maximals and made their animal sides take over. "Close contact" seems to be an extrapolation / made-upism. --Thylacine 2000 03:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the tree that shattered into pixels when Cheetor hit it with a sword. Whatever it was, it's not a common representative of "organic". -- Repowers 03:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Massive purge

Hi guys. Look, I really don't want to get in a big argument here, as I have neither the time nor inclination, but I have to say I'm pretty miffed at the total slash & burn that's been done to the new sections I created. I know this is a wiki that anyone is free to edit, but given that you were clearly aware that I was pretty much the sole creator of the material from "Usage Problems", it would've been polite to at least discuss it a bit more first, don't you think?

Although I totally agree there was a great need for story links and concrete examples (and I appreciate you chaps adding them) and the prexisting material certainly needed tweaking, I really don't see that it was neccessary to pretty much annihilate all the new material that was already there...! The complaint about "speculation" is noted, but a] it was all clearly phrased as such, and b] there are plenty of instances on this wiki of logic-driven speculation which openly attempts to address canon ambiguities by suggestion theoretical explanations.

After all, it is a pretty big Question Mark/Elephant in The Room for the whole Beast Era, don't you think? If the Beast Wars-era characters were already genuinely organic, then what's the point of becoming Technorganics in Beast Machines? On that basis alone I think the "Cyborgs or DNA Data" section is worthy of inclusion, as it is clearly an interrogative extrapolation which is not asserting any canonicity. The simple fact that there is such uncertainty merits such subsections, surely?

And at any rate, regardless of the organic/inorganic uncertainty, it is very clear from Beast Machines that anything pior to BM is definitely not technorganic as per the BM definition, and thus the term's use in reference texts when applied to Beast Wars characters is erroneous.

I really believe these things bear more in-depth treatment in the article, regardless of whether they're my original words or not.

As it stands now, I think the article is worse off, I really do. I think it is worthwhile having some material on the article that discusses the nature of pre-BM beast modes, rather than just a stack of piecemeal examples that don't really lead to anything. (Also, completely removing the reference to the uncertain status of Jungle Planet inhabitants seems a questionable deletion.)

Perhaps a compromise would be in order. Might I suggest a negotiated, more concise (if necessary) version of the previous text, enhanced by integrating your excellent examples & story links? Alternatively, what about creating a separate, linked article about "Beast Modes"...?

PacifistPrimePP 04:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of what I removed was simply overlong wordiness -- using 100 words to say could be summed up in 10. When my eyes glaze up and start to skip over entire paragraphs, it's my personal litmus test for something that needs heavy re-writing -- usually to have its central idea plucked out and everything else discarded.

Furthermore, some of it was flat-out incorrect (ie: the BW guys weren't organic, when there's all kinds of evidence that they were), and then more still was unfounded fan theorizing (cyborgs, etc.) only necessary because of that position.

Likewise for the position that the BM use of the term is the right one, and all subsequent uses are wrong -- the guidebooks are canon, they said what they said, and we're not really supposed to be picking and chosing our canon here. They use the term differently than the show did; the article as it stands notes that difference, and moves on. The "piecemeal" results may not be very rational or aesthetically pleasing, but the wiki is not the place for Grand Unified Fan Theories trying to tie it all together.

I don't think I cut out any content from the article that's directly supported by the canon, and everything that's in there now is supported by concrete examples. Sometimes extrapolation and speculation are reasonable -- see Snarler's origin for a good example, IMO; there's no conjecture, just a listing of three clear, obvious possibilities that don't require making anything up. (Crap, guess I never changed that page per the Talk page discussion. Oops.) But there are limits.

The article is already very long as is (as noted above, I'm not alone in thinking so.) The entire "Usage" section could be nuked and I wouldn't be too bothered, as it's tangential at best to the actual Beast Machines-centered content of the page. -- Repowers 06:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

For that matter, Jungle Planet inhabitants are sculpted as being wholly mechanical, and intentionally so.--Rosicrucian^Talk 06:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we need to note the Jungle Planet guys. They're irrelevant to the topic and their only (tangential) connection is that they take the form of animals. —Interrobang 06:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm completely in agreement with Repowers. I looked at the old article, and it was a long, unreadable, rambling mess with lots of fanon. The cropping done is for the better. And I also agree that the Jungle Planet guys are completely irellevant to the matter, and bringing them up at all only serves to pointlessly muddy the waters based on nothing canon. --M Sipher 16:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Why did Primal's team need to go through the Beast Wars just to acquire beast modes?

In the article the question was raised why did Primal's team need to go through the Beast Wars just to acquire beast modes? My thought for the answer: they didn't. When they discovered the Oracle in the first episode it said "At long last, the receptive Spark.". The idea could be that Primal need to go through temporarily going to the matrix and carrying Prime's spark to become able to be receptive to the will of the Matrix which he pass on to the others near the end.

The first episode of the second season specifically states that they had to have the Beast Wars to bring back organic modes to Cybertron. --ItsWalky 15:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes but it's stated by Optimus who, like before might misunderstanding the concept. Another point is that the transmetal forms used by four members Optimus team allowed them to survive the gas long enough to reach the Oracle while not having them allowed Rhinox and Silverbolt to e quickly captured. --Ztyran

Animated technos

Animated has consistantly referred to BA and co as techno-organics. So why is it so many articles are allowed use the term technorganic? Similar yes, but nothing suggestiing their the same thing. For all we know it's more like Beast Wars, considering transformation is no different than standard. User:Eire

Blackarachnia's bio calls her technorganic. - Starfield 23:48, 18 April 2009 (EDT)

List of BW physiology traits

Saved here for future use on some other, more appropriate page:

Among the contradictory facts of the Beast Wars physiology are:

• A major premise of Beast Wars was that, in order to create their beast altmodes, the Cybertronians needed to scan and replicate the DNA of living or fossilized creatures.

• Instances of damage to beast mode tissue were inconsistent, sometimes merely exposing sparking circuitry, other times being shown to seemingly bleed ("Spider's Game"). However, Cheetor states that "I don't have real blood—just mech fluid." ("The Web")

• The Beast Warriors apparently did need to breathe to sustain themselves. ("Dark Voyage")

• They often consumed organic food as fuel. ("Power Surge", "The Low Road", "Code of Hero", "Victory") This eating also apparently translated into some form of digestion or analogous process, as evidenced by Rhinox's infamous fart attack.

• Despite this, in Beast Machines, Cheetor explicitly states that they no longer eat food, instead powering up on Energon alone. Confusing the matter further, Primal then says in reply that "we used to" only consume Energon, which clearly is not the case. ("Forbidden Fruit")

Cybertronian, but not mechanical.

• Megatron was able to create a sapient clone of Dinobot with simply "a spec of [his] DNA", seemingly indicating that both the organic and robotic "genetics" are present in a DNA sample. However, the clone did not have a robot mode it was capable of transforming into, a fact which has unclear implications. Oh, and the real Dinobot was able to eat him, for whatever that's worth...

• When forced to spend a prolonged period in their beast modes, the Maximals suffered from persistent dreams of living as "real" animals, which eventually consumed them and, upon awaking, their personalities became entirely bestial. Tigatron explained the schism between the Cybertronian and animal personalities as a side effect of a "programming block". ("Call of the Wild")

• Looking outside the show, the Beast Wars writers have stated that, in animal form, the characters are "fully organic"<ref>"When BW's transform into beast mode, they become FULLY organic. This means they are vulnerable to anything the animal they become is. They get hurt worse when hit in beast mode, they have to breathe and eat, they are for all and intents and purposes animals."</ref>, citing both "Dark Voyage" and "Call of the Wild" as examples.<ref>Larry DiTillio post to ATT, Feb 4 1997</ref> However, while this may have been their intention, it is not entirely consistent with some elements of the completed show nor does it clarify the nature of the technology, and the statement itself is of a canonically tenuous nature.

Transmetal forms likewise appear to remain at least partially organic:

• Tarantulas continued to consume organic food after going Transmetal. ("Code of Hero")

• Optimus Primal once showing interest in a bunch of bananas. ("Feral Scream Part 2")

• In Beast Machines, Megatron loathed his BW Season 3 (thus implicitly non-Technorganic by the BM definition) dragon form as "disgustingly organic". ("Sparkwar Pt. II: The Search")

• Megatron's attempts to purge these "organic" portions ultimately created the purely organic Savage/Noble creature. ("Prometheus Unbound")

-- Repowers 22:35, 25 April 2009 (EDT)

New article?

Hey, this is some cool "saved" stuff (immediately above). If it's being saved for a new page, could someone create that new page? Maybe we could call it something like "Beast Warriors", "Beast Warrior technology", or, failing that, make it part of the Scanning or DNA scanner articles, maybe? If this content is isn't sufficiently relevant to stay in the Technorganic article, it could serve as a short complementary article discussing the vagaries of the pre-Beast Machine tech. Any takers? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 110.33.205.174 (talk • contribs){{#if:| {{{2}}}|}}.

• • • I've made a suggestion/query along similar lines over at the Beast modes article talk page. Please discuss there.TrapRat 07:26, 26 November 2011 (EST)

Technorganic and Techno-Organic

Ok, i saw the last edit to this page which completely combines these terms and in my opinion i don't think that was warranted. They are two separate words. I think we should hold a discussion to see if they are representing the same idea or not. Stevo 21:23, 14 March 2013 (EDT)

I think the hyphen makes little to no difference. They seem to be treated as meaning the same thing (at least roughly) so I'd say the change was warranted. --Lord of Torment 01:14, 15 March 2013 (EDT)

Before doing anything, I checked to see if "Techno-Organic" had a separate article that would perhaps explain the basis for the imaginary distinction. You know what it did? It redirected me to "Technorganic." - Chris McFeely 06:04, 15 March 2013 (EDT)