Talk:Thirteen

At the Botcon 2009 Question panel, Forest Lee (Hasbro's internal TF continuity guy) when asked what The Fallen would be like in "Shattered Glass" finally stated explicitly that The Fallen was a multiversal singularity-- there is no "SG" Fallen.. there is only The Fallen, one guy. -Derik 17:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT) reported by Walky

Multiversal singularities

Are the first 13 all "continuity singularities" as Primus and Unicron are? One version existing across all realities? Vector Prime definately seems to be, and Maccadam as well if you include "Prime Spark" as cannon. Thoughts? ZacWilliam 11:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

How can Unicron jump continuities wih all his different HISTORIES? he spent MILLIONS OF YEARS as Cybertrons' MOON fergods sake!

The whole singularities thing is a godawful mess. You have to start acceptign that Unicron, who DEMONSTRABLY spends tens or tens of MILLIONs of years in individual continuities is time-travelign as WELL as jumping continuities. Which is fine, but for some reason in the Armada comic he doesn't, and no one's ever even HEARD of Unicron before, he's a completely external threat with no history in this universe.

But then, I think brad Mick intended Thundercracker to be one of the 13, so what do I know? It's not like I have a decent track record at pattern recognition or anything... *cough*predaconpolitics*cough*

Also, IS Primus a singularity across all continuities? I could have sworn we saw him DIE. I hate the sucky TFU-type Multiverse! it sucks, it sucks so hard Gregory! -Derik

...why is it impossible that no one's ever heard of Unicron in the Armada universe until he shows up? It makes perfect sense to me. Hell, the only person who's ever even investigated or shown more than a little interest Cybertron's past in the Armadaverse is Overrun, and he was from another universe anyway. If there's only one Unicron and infinite universes, of COURSE he's going to be new to some of them! Derik, start making sense. --ItsWalky 13:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

but if he's new to SOMe of them, how is he ancient in MANY of them?  :~( does he exist simultaneously in the past of many universes? The marvel US Comic and Aramda toon BOTh, for instance, have Unicron at different locations in space in the year 2020. Is he time-traveling?

I guess mostly i just bitch because I think it sucks. -Derik

I took it as a given that he time-travels when he moves between dimensions. This isn't really that hard to figure out, man. --ItsWalky 13:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Say, do we know enough about how the TF multiverse works to say for sure that when it's 1977 in one universe it's 1977 in them all? --KilMichaelMcC

The Ultimate Guide refers to the non-Fallen original Cybertronic Transformers as "Prima and the Twelve", which, while not clear, implies to me that Prima is in addition to the twelve. Also, I see no reason to casually discount Primon's existence or Matrix-holding simply because we know Prima was the first Transformer on Cybertron - we know there were Transformers before Cybertron because the Covenant of Primus predate its creation. Primon could have held the Matrix before Prima ever existed.

Maccaddam being anything other than a bar-owner was a goddamn joke, and Legends explicitly de-continuities itself so its stories can't be used to support arguments. Prime Spark was a WARendfeld story anyway.

(next part of argument contains minor spoilers for the club comic

And I don't understand the concern about Unicron at all. He's not one guy who travels between all continuities, he's a single entity that exists in all continuities (or none, presently) simultaneously. That's why the Unicron the TFU away team flew to was in the depths of our space in Year-The-End-Of-BM-Plus-One but vanished when the Unicron in Energon was destroyed. Simply because he was a dormant moon in the Armadaverse in 1991 has no bearing on his activities in 1991 in the G1 comic (eating Cybertron) or the G1 cartoon (cruising around the universe to a groovy synth soundtrack). The same is clearly true of Primus - otherwise, you have to assume he's been physically dimension-hopping-and-time-travelling around the multiverse as well, which is not the case because otherwise there would only be a Cybertron in one universe at any given time. The club comic's discussion of Cybertron-as-hinge-point supports my view, I think.

Vector Prime is unlike Unicron and Primus in that he is a single entity existing in a single continuity at any given time, no different from Axer. It's possible that one of the Twelve in every continuity is a Vector Prime analogue, but in my opinion we don't have nearly enough evidence to say one way or another. -LV 15:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly, LV. Though Unicron has the ability to move between dimensions at will, he is confined to one universe at a time. According to the Club comic itself, Primus is "a single, infinite curvea cross all realities; the only truly unique thing in all of creation." Unicron is "bound always by his imprisonment in a physical body, he's been incapable of destroying mroe than one reality at a time." Thing is, being dead in the black hole *changed* this dynamic. The Unicron singularity is what has, for the first time, consolidated the Unicron of allwhens into one black hole which is beginning to perpetuate itself across every timeline. This is why Cybertron's Unicron is beginning to affect Universe's Unicron. This occurrence is a new situation, unique to this storyline. It can't be used as evidence to support Unicron's properties in normal circumstances. --ItsWalky 16:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Then I agree with Derik. If Unicron only exists one place at one time, it is essentially irreconcilable with what has been shown in the fiction. If Unicron can happily time-travel when he changes dimensions, then there is nothing preventing him from existing in all dimensions simultaneously. He simply travels to the beginning of each when he leaves the previous one, thus existing linearly from his own perspective but simultaneously across all universes from every single other being's. You cannot have a time-and-space-travelling Unicron and a Unicron that can only be in one dimension at a time from any perspective but his own. In other words, as was said already, we can definitely place Unicron in at least two continuities in 1991, since he was actively eating Cybertron and orbiting Cybertron. If canon says otherwise, then it's canon, but it is fundamentally illogical and unworkable. And yes yes, transforming aliens from a planet the size of Saturn made of metal blah blah blah, but there is "unrealistic premise" and there is "an explanation which in no ways accounts for any of the material it purports to explain". But oh well. -LV 16:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

But they were two different 1991s, man, in different timelines. He's not in 1991 twice at the same time, he's in two distinct 1991s at different times. Hell, as Kil said above, we don't even know that when it's 1977 in one universe, it's 1977 in them all. Hell, when it's 2030AD in the Unicron Trilogy, it's been demonstrated that it's apparently ~2350AD in Generation 1! I do not see it as irreconcileable. --ItsWalky 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing which is better illustrated with a picture, but Unicron CANNOT time-travel when changing dimensions without allowing the possibility of existing in multiple continuities simultaneously. That is just the way it is with multiple simultaneously-existing timelines. If you do not want them to be the same year, that is fine. Unicron can nonetheless exist in 2030AD in UT and 2350AD in G1 simultaneously if he can time-travel.

It is not an issue for debate; the canon says what it says. However, the canonical explanation is irrational. -LV 16:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Here I was thinking no one would respond to this while I was at work and I come back to "this." Let's put this in talking points:

1) Primus is one single pan-dimensional being existing simultaniously in all continuities. We're all agreed on that right? We can like it or dislike it, but at the moment that's what cannon says.

2)Unicron has only ever existed in one continuity at a time (until Cybertron). Fine. Let's look at that. It *IS* odd that the brothers would be different this way without explination and that if he could jump through time and dimensions completely at will he wouldn't always jump to the begining of each one, and so, yes, to all perspectives but his own exist everywhen at once. There are two possible solutions to that part of the issue: either A) He can't travel through time in an unlimited fasion but only make small jumps time-wise or with great difficulty, or B) He cannot travel in time at all, not even when he jumps universes, but as Walky suggested, time is not in the same reletive place across universe. ie - When it's 1985 in the cartoon maybe it's only 1945 in the IDW books. If he jumped between them he would seem to travel intime but would not actually do so. Do those work, at least as a plausible enough to forget the iffyness solutions?

3)Why dismiss Maccadam as a joke? The entry in the DK guide seemed perfectly serious to me. Did it leave question as to whether it was true or a rummor? Sure. But I don't see anything that leans the suggestion one way or another. I rather like the idea myself. Legends, does put itself purposefully out of continuity, true, BUT when you're dealing with a multiverse can you totally do that? I mean if there are infinite universes the ones from Legends must be included in their somewhere right?

4)Getting back to my original question: Is the concensus that there are multiple Vector Prime's across continuities? It just seems that if his job is to safeguard space time that'd make things awefully complicated with ALL of him jumping around and constantly running into each other. Would one single Primus make an infinitude of reality jumping Vector Primes? And if he did, why doesn't an infinite army of VPs show up at each trouble spot to deal with the problem and wipe out and Unicron/Decepticon problems while they're at it? So far we've only seen ONE Vector Prime at work across the whole spectrum of past TF universe. We're sure he's not a singularity?

ZacWilliam 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can no longer make conclusions about Vector Prime based on the ludicrous canonical explanation for Unicron, so I abstain from commenting on him. However, I maintain that the reference in the UG to Maccaddam is clearly a joke - they're talking about a bar, and they immediately say that this absurd claim that the barkeeper is a legendary ancient Transformer with the observation that they serve extremely strong drinks. It's a joke about being drunk. Entirely in-character for Furman. -LV 00:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

See I just don't read the Maccadam entry that way at all. It reads serious to me. The final line is meant to put a bit of humorus doubt on the rest, but only a bit of doubt/mystery IMO. Maccadam's has always been a bit of a special place and a pet local of Furman's and I can totally see him quite seriously setting it up to be used this way. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ in our takes on it. The important thing for the Wikki is that Maccadam remains a rumored, but not confirmed, member of the 13. ZacWilliam 01:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I had another thought, the better to muddy the waters. With Unicron and Primus having god or near-god status, could their being the same, er, being doesn't necessarily mean they're actually bouncing back and forth between dimensions and times all the time? Could they be 'aspects' or 'splinters' of the same being? (Way to be obscure: There's a Doctor Who story called The City of Death which has a neat example, but moving on...) This could be what makes them so hard to finally kill, if they've got the entirety of their 'selves' spread out across multiple realities at a time. This also means it's not hard for Unicron to attack in the Marvel reality in 1991, the Dreamwave UT reality in 2003, the Movie reality in 2005, and so on. He doesn't (always) travel between dimensions, he just already exists that way. Hmmm...OK, maybe that made sense. Ratbat 05:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

If Macadam as a member of the 13 was a joke, why did the pictue of Macadam's bad show characters from multiple continuities?

Everyone sseems really comfortable saying "There's only one Primus, just liek Unicron." I admit I've msised some material lately- vould someone please tell me where this was established? Because-- we've kinda seen Primus die.

and Unicron. But it's a fair point. For all their apparent similarities, Primus and Unicron represent fundamentally different things, so it's not unreasonable to assume that some aspects of them differ wildly. If Unicron represents chaos, then his random appearances and contradictory histories suddenly make quite a bit more sense to me. He's not MEANT to obey the normal rules. It's against his very nature.

Unicron time-traveling I dont' really gundamentally have a hard time accepting. We saw in Worlds Collide (?) that the untuned Transwarp Space Bridge portals were flittign across space AND time, showing pictures of the distant past (BW) and buture (BW Neo/BM) as well as plainly laternate worlds (RiD.) So it's possible that Whisper's world Unicron was coming from int he very deep and distant future, and he decided that the Armada-toonverse was weak and ignorant enough he could just show up in the present and demolish it, and didn't need to lay deep plans to do so.

But- where the hell did dreamwave!Armada's Mini-cons come from then if not Unicron?

Has Unicron even marauded across 'infinite' realities? In Worlds Collide they call it his Ninth Emergence. That's not infinite realities. That's nine realities. And so what was up with Primus saying Unicron ate the previous Universe in us!Marvel#74? Was he just lying for no reason?

My main complaint witht he Multiversal Unicron we were presented with si that it doesn't make sense, not that they didnt' explain it all, it's that no possible explanation seems to explain it all. And not tiny inconstencies- massive, glaring fundamentally unworkable inconsistencies. Inconsistencies even in the material generated that's suppsoed to explain how this all works!

Kang's explanation form Marvel comics, with time-travel and th war to pin down his various aspects works. Except- we'rs explicitly told that no, that's not the case. So... bah. -Derik 09:19, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Primus and Unicron exist across multiple continuities, because they are Gods, and represent chaos and order. However, they CAN be removed from a given continuty, and still continue to exist in others.

Vector Prime exists across all continuities and times, because it's in his job description. (Even though he technically died, his "younger self" is still in the timestream, capable of visiting anywhere and anywhen.)

We know Unicron can manipulate time (Like when he yanked Galvatron II from a future timeline to use as his minion in the present) so it makes sense that he can travel through time. The only incongruity with this is if he is indeed a single entity hopping through timelines, then why would the Unicron singularity mess with him while he was in the Universe.. err.. Universe. It either wouldn't have happened to him yet, or would have been in his past; either way he wouldn't have gotten sucked into it from a different universe unless he either was a multiple Universe entity like Primus, or the singularity is something that winds up being both in his past and his future an infinite ammount of times.--UndeadScottsman 07:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Wasn't The Last Autobot called such, because he was the last Autobot made by Primus? Shouldn't he have been one of the 13?

Or am I totally off base here? Again.--Octopus Prime- King of the Road! 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Without more information, it's impossible to say. As far as I can tell, he's unique to the G1 comic continuity. Though he otherwise bears a number of striking resemblences to Vector Prime. In any case, this debate is probably better suited for Talk:Last_Autobot.

T^he last Autobot was a name given to him by those who came later, not Primus. He's also known as The Ultimate Warrior and The Soulof Cybertron. He is convieniently refered to as TLA by fans because 1) his true name was never revealed 2) That was the tittle of one of the issues of the Marvel comic, giving the most 'weight' to that name of his 3. -Derik 15:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

(Part of comment deleted. I misread your statement. Sorry.) TLA is actually referred to as such by Optimus Prime on several occasions. It was in fact the title of issue #79 (something to keep in mind for disambiguation!), and Spike Witwicky also refers to himself as "TLA" in that issue. But at the same time, I'd say it's reasonably obvious that "TLA" is not the name Primus gave him.--G.B. Blackrock 16:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

---

As well as being mentioned in a Japanese timeline, Alpha Trion actually specically states that he is "a first generation product of Vector Sigma" in the TV show. Can't be sure of the episode offhand, but is very probably The Key To Vector Sigma.

I think that this may rule him out of being one of the Thirteen. -TTK

Really? I would have thought it made Alpha Trion an especially good candidate. I guess it comes down to what one considers Vector Sigma to be.... (By the way, please use signatures!)--G.B. Blackrock 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Every flashback to the birth of the 13 shows them arising full-born from the ground. No Vector Sigma involved. Trion may be among the first of the first 'production generation' that came after that. (This, of course, holds up only until they retcon it, but ancient as Trion always seemed ot me- it was never 'ancient enough to be one of the 13.') -Derik 18:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly a plausible interpretation. But I wouldn't consider the matter closed one way or the other.--G.B. Blackrock 18:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure the thirteen were supposed to have been created BEFORE Primus became Cybetron. Vector Sigma apparently also pre-dated Cybertron, but I figure Vector Sigma wasn't pressed into service creating Transformers immediately. Infact, probably not 'till the Quintessons came along and installed the shell program that became the Oracle. But as you say, this period of Transformers pre-history is notoriously sketchy. I'll certainly be interested to see if they ever fill in the gaps. -TTK

The only pre-Cybertron Transformers I know of are from the text story Reaching the Omega Point. Before Primus trapped himself and Unicron in the planetoids, he had to be sure that the trick wour work, and that he would be able to shape his prison. So he shunted a bit of his essence into some lifeless rock and created the Covenant, 12 Transformers based on our Earth zodiac. --Crockalley 12:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Implicitly, Primon must also have been created before Cybertron, since we know he predates Prima as Matrix-holder and we know Prima was the first Transformer created on Cybertron. (Which may actually also imply that the Liege Maximo predates Cybertron... -LV 16:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't the Leige Maximo say though that when the first named Prime "rose from Cybertron" or something like that that he did too. That definately implies They were created there. Primon I think is simply an annomoly, a glitch in Furman's telling of the story that will likely never be followed up on.

Here's the text. Considering we don't know when the "first named Prime" was created, that's a meaningless statement, so it's not helpful to us. --ItsWalky 03:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page be at "Thirteen original Transformers"? It would certainly make the bold part at the beginning look better. -LV 06:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. --ItsWalky 06:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"Original"?

Are these guys REALLY the first TFs? My reading of the stories puts the Covenant before them, since the whole idea of the Covenant being a test-run makes any functional predecessors nonsensical. I suppose the argument could be made that The 13 are fundamentally different beings from the rest of Transformerdom - maybe even easier for Primus to create - and a test was still necessary to determine if he could make creatures that were fully mired in space-time. (Though the Covenant was still AWARE of multi-dimensional events, and in fact seemed to serve much the same purpose as The 13...)

But even that aside, there's still the practical notion that The 13 were created for Cybertron, and Cybertron didn't exist yet when the Covenant was created. So, that having been said, what's the evidence that The 13 are actually "original"?

- Jackpot 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Basically: they aren't. If you include the Covenant, the Thirteen aren't the "original" Transformers at all, since they are necessarily predated by the Covenant for all the reasons you cite, as well as, inferentially, Primon and the Liege Maximo. Functionally, they are referred to as the "original thirteen" or "first thirteen" regardless of this, probably because not even Furman thinks about the Covenant when writing TF backstory. I think for logistical purposes it remains a useful name for them on this wiki - without it, they basically don't have any meaningful group name, and that's inconvenient - but I do think there should be some kind of indication in this article that some Transformers are more original than these fellows. -LV 19:18, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The Ancients

I'm not sure where to place it, so I put it here as, um, sorta reference. :) --TX55 08:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

In the original Japanese dub of "Galaxy Force", Vector Prime is depicted as one of "The Ancients".

According to the background settings of Galaxy Force anime, "The Ancients" is the earliest Transformers in the world/continuity of "Galaxy Force" (not "Cyertron").

Though "The Thirteen" is mentioned by The World of Transformers, the site doesn't confirm that "The Thirteen = The Ancients" by far. What the site only mentioned is that there are two theories of the origin of Transformer race.

So, by far, The Ancients is not the same group as The Thirteens, unless someday comes up an official information stating they are the same.

Agreed. So shouldn't someone take the Logos Prime person off? --Boba Fett 17:26, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

Logos Prime

He's in both the confirmed and possible lists. Which is it? --abates 21:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Magnus Maximus moved it to possible, Walky added to confirmed but didn't remove the possible, MM removed the duplicate in "confirmed", Walky blocked MM over it and readded it to "confirmed" while still leaving it in "possible". - SanityOrMadness 21:12, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Argh, there's MORE stuff to change back? Is this the same dude we were reverting before? Some dude out there has a really serious hate-on for this Logos Prime thing. --ItsWalky 21:13, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Uhm... I don't think content was deleted here, just the "confirmed" status of Logos Prime questioned.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:14, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

What's left to confirm? The evidence is stacked up. Logos Prime would have to be the red herring of red herrings to not be what this wiki says, and that's kind of ridiculous. --ItsWalky 21:17, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Derik, what the hell. --ItsWalky 22:43, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Y'know, by definition if this 13 crap covers THEWHOLEENTIRETFMULTIVERSEBYE, then Macaddam should be in "confirmed"... :p - SanityOrMadness 23:08, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Not in a story that is specifically stated to be non-canon, "just for fun." --ItsWalky 23:15, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

On a multiverse level, it's impossible NOT to be canon. Which is one of my major problems with this whole pile, actually. - SanityOrMadness 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Author intent should be something this wiki describes and leaves up to individual fan judgment--not something we firmly take sides on in establishing internal-to-story facts. The entire reason we have articles for the "real" Transformer characters Geosensus and Paddles is that Cian's proviso is contradicted by the pre-existing context of a TF Multiverse, which I suspect he never knew existed. Having said that, Legends never actually specifically says Maccadam is one of the 13; it says he's multiversal, which fulfills half of the joke from the Ultimate Guide.<--Thy, can't login on IE.

So... MM moved the info (not deleted it, moved), Walky put the info back in the old place thus meaning the info was now put twice on the page, then banned MM because he removed one of the duplicate instances? Just making sure I got this straight.
And no, MM is not the same guy we were reverting before. MM is the guy who's been adding a lot of valuable info like missing covers and stuff on the commercial bumper and scene transition pages. --Jeysie 23:16, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, you got it straight. He originally blocked him for a month as "YOU ARE DELETING CONTENT RIGHT NOW", then cut it to a week as "It's not smart to get in a revert war with an admin." - SanityOrMadness 23:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, then, remind me never to correct any mistakes, because I apparently might get reverted and banned for it. --Jeysie 23:50, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

That occurred to me too... - SanityOrMadness 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

So the original change was related to the previous discussion on this talk page about the Ancients not being the same thing as the first Thirteen? --abates 00:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Correct. MM edit 1 diff, Willis adds a duplicate, MM removes duplicate, Willis reverts previous edit. - SanityOrMadness 09:28, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Based on this, I'm going out on a limb here and unbanning the guy. Seems like a pretty draconian punishment over what appears to be mostly a misunderstanding. -- Repowers 10:58, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that was fun. Thanks for getting this situation sorted, guys. - Magnus Maximus 09:31, 29 May 2009 (EDT)

Nexus Maximus

The five silhouettes next to Vector Prime seem to strongly resemble the individual components of Nexus Maximus, and since the five are both Transformers and part of a being considered "one of the thirteen", is it possible that they are numbered members as well? I mean, technically they are five transformers that were created in the first batch, so maybe?KrytenKoro 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I would say no. Nexus Maximus is a member of the 13, but his 5 component pieces aren't. 76.240.201.195 18:39, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Defiance

To be clear - is that image depicting the trans-dimensional whatsits, or the first batch of "Transformers" made to serve them?KrytenKoro 06:09, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

The first batch of "Transformers." There are actually two more in a different panel but this was the best group shot. This is the creation of the trans-dimensional whatsits. - Starfield 07:50, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, then the text needs to make that clearer, because right now it reads as if it's equating these Seekers/Constructicons with the Fallen and such.KrytenKoro 17:42, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Trans-dimensional AllSpark creations

Zuh? Why not The Thirteen?--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:14, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

Well, they aren't Transformers for one thing. They are a separate race. - Starfield 22:15, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

...but we have no reason to believe they're not The Thirteen.--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:16, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

Oh. Hmmm. The 13 aren't Transformers? That article should be renamed then. - Starfield 22:20, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

The article is just... I don't know. I don't think it conveys information. I think if anything it obfuscates information to obey some sort of semantic point.--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:24, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

They do play the same general role. It didn't occur to me that they might be the 13 since they aren't Transformers. The articles would have to be merged carefully. In the live-action continuity there is the Fallen's race and 13 original Transformers (which would be the first 13 beings of the new Transformer's race). - Starfield 22:41, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

You invented what amounts to a fan term to explain what you believe to be a contradiction. We are needlessly multiplying entities here.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:31, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

The Fallen: "It gave us workers, but they were not like us. They were special and were to be the first of your race. Creatures born with the ability to change their forms." It seems pretty clear the Fallen's kind aren't Transformers. The Fallen could be distorting the facts, I suppose (he is The Fallen), or has a fuzzy memory. I'm not against merging this with the 13 Transformers, but I would be interested in how it was explained. - Starfield 21:48, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

I dunno, saying that the Fallen and his brothers "aren't Transformers" seems to me to be a bit like saying we shouldn't have Beta in the Female Transformers category. --KilMichaelMcC 22:07, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

Hell, half the Matrix Guides, including Alpha Trion, shouldn't be considered Transformers! --ItsWalky 23:09, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all, Starfield. Even in the original continuity that had the thirteen, wasn't transformation an invention from later on? And Vector Prime still was eventually able to do it, so it's not unreasonable to assume that while the Trans-dimensionals weren't born with the ability to change their form, they modified themselves to do it. Which is why the Fallen can turn into a space fighter now.KrytenKoro 07:47, 28 May 2009 (EDT)

I still propose nuking it, but until we get consensus on that, I'm putting the shenanigans tag on it.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:54, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Call me crazy, but I have this feeling there may be an actual name for these dudes soon. - Starfield 15:08, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

And on what are you basing this? I keep asking this, but you keep making up unofficial terms for things.--Rosicrucian^Talk 15:15, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

The ROTF adaptation comic. I understand we aren't supposed to use that yet for spoiler reasons. - Starfield 15:22, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, let me spell this out. There is at present no definition of this term you've invented that does not completely overlap with the Thirteen. Every member of the Thirteen is one of these, and every one of these is one of the Thirteen. Even if we accept that this is somehow a meaningful term, there is no way to separate it from the Thirteen. To pretend otherwise is to be painfully obtuse.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:14, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Nuke it from orbit. --ItsWalky 18:18, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Y'all kinda seem to be jumping down Starfield's throat... IITC the Transdimensional beings page was created as a sorta precautionary things back then Alliance was still coming out when we weren't sure how it'd play out-- or even if the Fallen was a multiversal singularity. (We thought probably yes, but there was room foe debate, and the movie stuff IS awfully messy.)

...of course it's just as likely that I'm missing something, in which case, please proceed tearing him a new transdimensional arsehole. -Derik 18:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

I'd like a transdimensional arsehole. I bet it would mean you wouldn't even have to get up to go to the bathroom. - Chris McFeely 18:30, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

I'm not taking it personally. It always was kind of a sloppy placeholder. I honestly thought they were going a different direction when I read Defiance 4, but now it looks like it is shaping up pretty good continuity wise. - Starfield 18:41, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

That's all well and good, but the article, as well as his defense of the term, continued long after its (however dubious) usefulness expired. So, I've nuked the article and archived the discussion here for posterity.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:36, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Oh, is that what's going on? slowpoke.jpg

Well, I've certainly been there myself! -Derik 18:38, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Prima

Why is Prima on this list? I would have thought Primon would be the more likely choice m'self. -Derik 20:01, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

He is confirmed in at least one continuity as the first Cybertronian. Thus, he's the first of the Thirteen. Funny, innit?--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:03, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Which continuity, and sauce? -Derik 20:45, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Marvel G1. Not explicitly stated, but able to be deduced.--Rosicrucian^Talk 20:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

But I don't think Prima should be on there. Primon seem to predate him/her.

If a guidebook SAID Prima was one of the 13 or something, that'd be different. -Derik 21:22, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Well here's how it goes, we have a Marvel G1 issue and a Marvel G2 issue which depict the first Cybertronian. One of those issues depicts said first Cybertronian as the first Matrix-Bearer. Marvel G1 also has a litany of the Matrix-Bearers which the Creation Matrix itself recites at several times during Matrix Quest, thus establishing this figure, though visually quite different the two times we see him, as Prima. So, insofar as anything can be consistent within Marvel G1 given the vast artistic differences which sprang up, the first Cybertronian and first Matrix-Bearer is Prima.

Primon however has a far more fuzzy pedigree, a smaller corpus of source material establishing him, and his membership in the Thirteen is also predicated upon the Liege Maximo being a member, which is probable, but as we've discussed before never really confirmed in official source material.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:29, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Your answer is full of fail and conjecture.

Nevertheless, it got me to check the source material. The Ultimate Guide explicitly says Prima is one of the 13 on page 15. Further, Prima is their leader. -Derik 21:40, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

Were I not at work, I could have done the same. But alas, I am limited until I hop in my car and drive home. I still say my answer is close enough for government work, though.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:43, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve.Tocqueville

-Derik 21:50, 4 June 2009 (EDT)

"New Divide" video

Hey, uh, there seems to be a very short clip of what appear to be silhouettes of some of the Thirteen... --ItsWalky 10:36, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Which one. -Derik 11:51, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

File:NewDivide-silhouettes.jpg

I wonder which one Vector Prime is!

--ItsWalky 19:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

So can any of our U.K. friends confirm or deny if these are indeed the Thirteen? -- SFH 18:13, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Weeellll... okay, spoilers to be safe... they ARE the Primes, the original Transformers, as it were. But... if I heard the dialogue right, and I'm not SWEARING that I did, but I have seen other people say they heard the same thing... IN the film itself... there are stated to only SEVEN of them. And the events of Defiance are really... at odds with the movie , too. In the gentlest terms. Honestly, I was watching the movie, and every so often something happened to make me go "Aw, fuck, the wiki's going to have its work cut out for it here." - Chris McFeely 18:28, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Yep, there's a mistake in there. Seven is definitely the number. The Fallen being so named because he chose to eradicate life in his quest for Energon (think Captain Ranson in Star Trek Voyager "Equinox"). Optimus Prime is apparently their last descendant (how they know this is not explained, nor is the concept of Primes, and why only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, when it looks like anybody can do what Prime finally did). Oh, and none of them look like any of our Primes. In fact they all look like the Fallen (customisers should be buying multiple Fallen toys to make them!) Drmick 20:05, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

What a pain. Yet I think that will probably make patching things around the 13 easier.... -Derik 20:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

The only thing that would make this work with past information is if the Thirteen aren't multiversal singularities, and since the Powers That Be reconfirmed that at Botcon, I can only assume (or hope) that they have something planned for the Thirteen that will straighten this out. -- SFH 00:21, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

You have to remember, there's already the "oddity" that the birth of these guys 13 doesn't really match other depictions-- and the AllSpark being some sort of sun-destroying monstrosity is... not very Primus-y. I think there's definitely wiggle room here. -Derik 00:25, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Oddly, the adaptations say 13. How do we know what we know about the AllSpark and harvesters and the original Transformers? There is only one of them left. He wouldn't lie for his own purposes would he? They could, if they wanted, make much of the ROTF backstory be a load of bullcrap made up by The Fallen. - Starfield 00:46, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Maybe we can wilfully ignore

the seven thing as a mistake like Brawl/Devastator? In the Feb 2009 issue of Toyfare, producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura stated that The Fallen was a member of The Thirteen, and that we should think of the Thirteen as "apostles". So clearly, the movie production did number the Primes as thirteen quite late into post production.

 --FFN 04:06, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

"Mistakes" do happen in fiction, and we acknowledge them as such. (The art errors in the marvel comic, for example.)

So even if the

the ancient Primes being the 13

is a mistake, that still leaves us with The Fallen being The Fallen.

The real question is how subsequent fiction addresses this. If it keeps re-iterating

the ancient Primes are the 13

then that's a problem we have to deal with.

I'm really beginning to suspect that the end scenario is going to be

there were some ancient beings, 7 in one story, 13 in another

and just void any connection to the 13 entirely-- then figure out how to deal with The Fallen being The Fallen separately.  -Derik 04:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Also, re:

Devastator... there was a comment on the Brawl talk page recently claiming that the letters page to Titan #3 said that Devastator and Brawl are separate near-identical Transformers.

 Can McSweeny confirm whether this is true or not?  -Derik 04:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

So I'm watching New Divide and I'm confused... is the screencap Walky posted above

from the beginning of the movie, where everyone was working in the valley, or the end, during SAM's NDE ? Can someone who's seen the movie answer this? -Derik 05:20, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Haha, this is where it gets

metaphysical. Sam dies, and the Matrix (which at this point in the film has disintegrated into dust and is kept in a rolled up sock) merges with Sam. The next scene then features Sam in Heaven/The Matrix/Nirvana/The Tunnel with the Light at the End where he meets the Seven Prime/Fallen Clones. They tell him that they have been watching him and that the Matrix is not an object but a state of mind/personality quality, and he's got it, so go wake up from this death and kick some ass. He then is resurrected and the Matrix is now completely reformed into its key/boomerang formation, which he then sticks into Prime's chest. But then somebody else steals it again to stick into the Fallen's Galvatron Machine from the UK comics

Drmick 08:04, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes I know this. I've read the book. I construe from your response that this screencap is from the latter half of the movie? (It's a yes or no question... god forbid you manage to explicitly answer it.) -Derik 14:01, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

That's a yes. - Chris McFeely 14:52, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

It actually works out pretty easily. Those seven don't have to be the only members of the Thirteen, just the ones that gave their lives to seal The Fallen away and secure the Star Harvester.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:17, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Except there are multiple versions of "Movie" continuity (IDW and Titan) and the original 13 are singularities... so how do these 7 manged to die twice and their corpses show up in different universes?

for that matter, how does The Fallen manage to die in multiple continuities? He has but one life to give for the Multiverse!

-Derik 14:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Transformers: The Movie Universe implies that The Fallen has to work to maintain corporeality in a universe. It is possible that killing the physical form of one of the Thirteen is nowhere near as final as it may sound.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:26, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Would Vector Prime's fate at the end of Cybertron support that? I have only passing knowledge of that show but didn't they show him fighting on in some other dimension after his "Death"? That could work on the same principle.--71.235.138.121 07:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Vector Prime was shown to be fighting Galvatron in the end-credits montage, so he's clearly not completely dead. --FFN 09:36, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't know about Galaxy Force, but in Cybertron, the speech that Vector Prime gave before he died made it sound like if he died in that universe, he would continue to exist in the multiverse but be barred from re-entering that particular universe.

Logos Prime

If the Fallen represents Entropy, and Vector Prime represents time... what would Logos Prime represent? His hub-ship-thing seems to be tied to his "area of responsibility" somehow... -Derik 00:55, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Opposition or competition? Some kind of "Balancing forces" deal, probably, judging by the story.KrytenKoro 04:23, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

So... "Logos" arguably, logic? 10:39, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

I don't think their given names actually have anything to do with their charge - Vector isn't in charge of directions, and Nexus is in charge of Energon, not connections. Maybe the name's are personally chosen, or represent their personalities?KrytenKoro 12:27, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Maybe LP would have been the gaurdian of knowlegde or information? --Boba Fett 18:03, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Twelve Apostles

Would it be at all acceptable to mention somewhere on the page the obvious basis of Jesus and the twelve apostles, or even how specific members of the Thirteen seem to be based on specific apostles?

For example:

• Prima is the chosen leader of the thirteen, carries Primus lifeforce in the form of the matrix (and so, is Primus's "child"), and his name even fits the ancient roman naming scheme for your children (well, daughters) - remove "us", fit "a".
• The Fallen is obviously Judas.
• Vector Prime appears to fit the role of Peter - the most loyal, who serves throughout time safeguarding the Transformers. He certainly acts like a space-pope, anyway.

Of course, beyond that, there's unlikely to be any use of the archetype, but would it at least be worth mentioning?KrytenKoro 04:49, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

We have a good source for that comparison with Lorenzo di Bonaventura's interview in Toyfare (February 2009). 79.67.234.198 05:16, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

I say we don't have enought info though. Afterall, we don't know about the Logo Prime or Nexus Maximus people. --Boba Fett 14:10, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

We know that the group as a whole is supposed to act as apostles to Primus. And yes, we can't really fit Logos or Nexus to a historical apostle, but we're extremely unlikely to, because beyond Jesus, Judas, and Peter, the various apostles are only really remembered for Catholic feast holidays, and aren't that culturally significant.KrytenKoro 14:22, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Oh,yeah...except for 'doubting Thomas'. OK --Boba Fett 18:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

I think pointing out the 12 disciples exclusively is kind of the wrong move to make at the outset. Group-of-13-and-one-betrays-them is a mythological constant. Like, say, Loki! He storms a group of 12 at Valhalla! It's linked into the superstition about the number 13, which is considered unlucky. Stories would use it for group numbers as foreshadowing! --ItsWalky 18:11, 23 June 2009 (EDT)

Except "Group of thirteen Apostles and one of them is a chosen son of the singular God" is not so much a mythological constant. Unless Zoroastrianism has it.KrytenKoro 03:39, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

Split 7 Primes from the 13

There's really nothing to suggest in the film that the 7 are part of the original Transformers. They're just referred to as the leaders of the race. The Fallen's the only one clearly linked to the 13 Eire 23.58 June 23 09

Maybe the missing 6 Primes are Vector Prime, Logos Prime, Nexus Prime, the Liege Maximo, Primon, and Some Other Dude, all having adventures elsewhere! --ItsWalky 03:46, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

but how? the comic states that The Fallen killed them all so how can they be having adventures in other universes if they're truly omniversial or what ever the f**k they're supposed to be. Anyway I think the idea behind the 13 is crap anyway. Dead Metal 04:03, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

It's been stated since the Dreamwave era that the original 13, save the Fallen, all died in an early battle with Unicron. And yet Vector Prime! (Who died but didn't.) And Logos Prime! And Nexus Maximus! Tales of these guys' deaths have been greatly exaggerated. --ItsWalky 09:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

I found what the film states to be ambigious. It didn't say "there were 7 Primes, and that's all that ever existed." --FFN 05:14, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

Jetfire said there were 7 Primes leading, and one went bad. I'm not saying that they're the only ones because clearly they weren't (Sentinel and Optimus get a mention after all) but conceptually there seems to be a difference between the 13 originals and just 7 powerful Primes. Apart from the Fallen, it just seems to be a concept loosely connected at best User:Eire 12.40 June 24th 09

I think we'd be best served, at least, creating a "see main article" for the Dynasty of Primes, and discussing the characters there. Not necessarily splitting it, and certainly merging it back in if any ancillary material clarifies the matter, but we're probably not helping any newbies who have just seen the film and want to read about these characters (if you could go so far as to call these non-entities that), only to wind up deeply confused over why we're insisting there are 13 of them and that they didn't turn in a tomb and such. - Chris McFeely 10:19, 24 June 2009 (EDT)

So They're not all Primes!

According to the Hasbro Q&A they are not all Primes, only 7 are. How do we reconsile that with the opening quote. I mean I get it's a retcon but how do we explain it in a sensible ay on this page? Thoughts?--76.28.72.27 20:35, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Where were all 13 called "Primes"? Also, from the answer, it seems Hasbro is calling them "The 13". - Starfield 20:40, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

We are the 13, the first, the forgotten, each of us serving a function vital to the survival of the universe. Each of us designated a Prime and given a function to serve during the long march of infinity.Vector Prime, "Vector Prime: In the Beginning"

Read the opening quote on this page, Starfield. Actual story material > Q&A answers, in my view. --KilMichaelMcC 20:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I vote for "Actual story material > Q&A answers", too. Sometimes I just think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers. By the way, there are only four confirmed members of the The Thirteen, and I don't consider Seven Prime equal The Thirteen despite what Hasbro say, since their origins are quite and obvious different. --TX55^TALK 21:10, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

"Sometimes I think HASBRO Q&A are less professional than the writers"? You do realize that Forest Lee is both the writer of that Vector Prime: In the Beginning quote and the guy who answers the fiction-related answers for the Q&As? --ItsWalky 22:03, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Yes, I know. Well, I admit I wrote the above too soon (due to the rush of breakfast) and a bit emotional. Of course I didn't mean all of them(the answers, not the answerer), just some of the answers make me have such feeling like this. --TX55^TALK 22:29, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I don't know. Our criteria for what is canon is "anything that Hasbro approves" since they are the ultimate authority for cannonicity if they come right out and say (As they now have) only 7 of "The Thirteen" were Primes the other 6 were not than that retcon would be the new cannon I think. Especially since it "kinda" patches an existing continuity glitch. Now I admit that claim will be stronger when Hasbro actually releases some story covering this period as they just said they will be doing shortly somehow. But even without that it is a retcon and official I'd say. --76.28.72.27 20:52, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Hey! I completely missed the quote. I was looking for a citation somewhere. I agree that story > answers. - Starfield 21:07, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Offhand, I'd say that the notion of the "Seven Primes" as opposed to the Thirteen showed up waaaaaaaaay late in the final drafts of Revenge of the Fallen, and thus too late for the adaptations to incorporate it. After all, they even were working up CGI models for all of the Thirteen. It is entirely possible that this change blindsided even Hasbro, and thus they're trying to spackle it up.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:17, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

I really kinda disagree with reverting the article to the pre-Hasbro-retcon state, as I think it's puting too little weight on Hasbros statement of what is the "truth". But I'm willing to let it go for now, since Hasbro seems to have plans to bring this all to the fore with some sort of fictional spotlight in the near future, we can deal with making the necessary changes when and if that material materializes. :) --76.28.72.27 22:48, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Female 13 member

OK. As of a day or two ago, Hasbro says that one of the 13 is female. Boards are already complaining that this messes with established continuity (IDW, Marvel comics). I'm not convinced this is a huge problem, but it does occur to me that, at the moment, there is no canon to support this claim. Only Hasbro's Q&A response, which might be argued as authorial intent or pseudocanon. As something not yet confirmed in canon (but only signaled as possible for the future), should it be included here at this time?--G.B. Blackrock 14:52, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

"Original Epic Warriors"?

[1] --Sabrblade 15:46, 26 November 2009 (EST)

A Math Joke?

I've been studying for the GRE, so excuse my nerdiness as a result of quantitative overload: if we go with the Hasbro Q&A response, there are 7 Primes out of 13 original transformers... there are six prime numbers in the set of thirteen positive integers: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13 itself. In addition, a prime number can only be divided by itself or 1, making a total of seven mathematical prime-related numbers. It might be assuming too much of Hasbro to consider this a deliberate gag for the nerdiest fans, but if it's a just a coincidence, it's a strange one... should this be noted in the article? Ayellowbirds 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

Exploring that more; Prima is the first transformer (and despite bearing the Matrix, is not named "Prime", but might be one?), Nexus Prime is made of five parts, and we also know of Logos Prime and Vector Prime, and the Fallen was a Prime before he... fell. Have any number-related concepts been tied to those last three? I want to assume the Fallen was the thirteenth of the originals, being furthest from his creator's original design as the last of the batch, and due to the negative connotations of the number; and a vector can be defined as the course or direction of movement between two points. Ayellowbirds 12:09, 21 February 2010 (EST)

Exodus Info

SPOILERS for TF Exodus

So Exodus gives us two or three new names for members of the Thirteen.

First there's Megatronus. This is very strongly implied to be the Fallen's original name. But it is still just implied from what I could see. They never come right out and talk about the 13 backstory at length and say the Fallen is Megatronus it just sorta makes the most sense for him to be, given what they do say, if you know the story. So how official do we want to treat that connection?

Second there's Alpha Trion. There's been a lot of chatter that certain stories (especially his evil SG counterpart) breaks the whole "Multiversal Singularity" thing if he's a 13er which he now is. Do we need a note to that effect.?

Lastly is the most questionable case. After talking about Megatronus as a legend at one point a character then mentions Leige Maximo in the next breath as the same type of legendary figure. This could be read as placing him as a 13er as well, but it's never explicately stated clearly. Does it deserve a note, at least in the potential area?

Thoughts? --76.28.76.206 11:51, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Megatronus? I can just imagine the millions of potential joke opportunities that this name comes with.

Sorry. Anyway, we should have a note next to the Fallen's listing in the confirmed 13ers category saying "Look, his name may or may not be Megatronus." or something to that effect.

A3 is a huge continuity headache, and we should probably be careful. So, yes, we should definitely have a note.

And finally, the Liege Maximo isn't that questionable, but we should keep him in the "possible 13ers" category until other fiction appears and confirms or disproves that.

---Blackout- 12:23, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

(Purely personal speculation) I think Megatronus might be Liege Maximo's original name. --TX55^TALK 13:08, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

As I'm not very familiar with most of the fictions, is there any reason "the Fallen" and "Liege Maximo" couldn't be the same guy? --Khajidha 13:13, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

One of them is not on fire and doesn't exactly seem to serve Unicron? Geewunling 13:16, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Has LM ever been in the same story as Unicron? The fire thing seems very minor. --Khajidha 13:25, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

LM does sort of resemble an overweight ROTF The Fallen. A little bit. If Megatronus were Liege Maximo, "Megatronus" would be his name, not his "original" name, since "Liege Maximo" is a title. To answer your question, Unicron was quite dead when we first meet Liege Maximo, and there isn't really room in the story for them to have met off-panel in the past. The Fallen and Liege Maximo aren't remotely the same character, but I suppose that could always be retconned. - Starfield 14:01, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Fallen - name forgotten, created alongside first Primes, founder of Decepticons, purged of morality

Liege Maximo - name unknown, created alongside first Prime, ancestor of Decepticons, ultimate evil

Sounds more than remotely similar to me. But I'm not saying it's true, just an idea that bounced around in my head. --Khajidha 14:20, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Also no room in ~13.7 billion years for them to have met off panel? --Khajidha 15:39, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Megatronus Prime is NOT the Liege Maximo. We know that for sure as they're named one after the other as seperate beings at one point. And we know for SURE that Megatronus is one of the 13. The info the book gives makes suuggestions that make it VERY, VERY likely he is the Fallen, they just don't say it out bluntly. So Megatronus should get a "confirmed" entry even if we're not going to make the (certainly intended) leep and connect the two. --76.28.76.206 13:43, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

That's the thing with myths and legends, one being can become split into multiple characters or multiple characters get merged into one with retellings. Just because there are separate legends Megatronus and Liege Maximo doesn't mean that further developments won't reveal them to be the same being. --Khajidha 13:49, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

That's irrelevant. Unless there's "anything" to suggest it at all in the Canon, it's just "making stuff up" and has no place on this wiki, which is what we're discussing. There's nothing in the book that in any way even hints of hinting that MP might be the LM, where there are lots of clearly very intentional details linking him to The Fallen.--76.28.76.206 14:00, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Oh, I thought you were responding to TX55's clearly labeled "purely personal speculation". I had no intention of anything I said being put in the article. --Khajidha 14:04, 23 June 2010 (EDT)

Toy Section

Should it stay or go? If it stays do we list EVERY toy of EVERY one of the Original 13? --Khajidha 14:10, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I'm for just excising it entirely. It's not exactly a toy gimmick like other subgroups are, and anybody who's interested in the toys can just scoot over to the characters' pages. —Interrobang 15:50, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to bring it up before slashing it. --Khajidha 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Alpha Trion

I'd also note that we need to add Alpha Trion to the confirmed members. --Jeysie 14:24, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Doesn't that mean that we need to combine all the Alpha Trion articles? --Khajidha 14:30, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I don't know. It kind of makes my brain hurt. --Jeysie 14:35, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

The thing about Alpha Trion is, he really is the same basic character in every universe. "Wise Ancient Autobot closely connected to Vector Sigma and/or records of Cybertronian history". Except for that one where he's a murdering looney. - Chris McFeely 15:41, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

The murdering looney is just the inversion of his resurrecting Prime and Elita (and maybe Magnus). Healer and killer are moral opposites. --Khajidha 15:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

If the Thirteen travel between the various universes, I suppose it's possible that the weight of knowing everything that was or will be, in each and every universe eventually pushes Trion over the edge.--Rosicrucian^Talk 15:49, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Didn't somebody say that the universe they were in could affect a singularity? I just figured this was an example of that. AT in the negative polarity universe exhibits inverted morality. --Khajidha 15:54, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

SG Alpha Trion was the same in the TransTech universe. —Interrobang 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Yeah, he was batslag and scheming during his time in Axiom Nexus, just better at hiding it.--Rosicrucian^Talk 15:56, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I'm sure there's enough wiffle-waffle in Forest Lee's bullshit-fu answer to the multiversal singularity question to cover it. Maybe this is just one iteration of Trion when he is a "quantum event", playing out the potential question of "What if dude was evil?" until it eventually collapses and reverts. Or something. - Chris McFeely 15:58, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Actually, to throw another kink into things, Animated Alpha Trion is not a historian, has no connection to any Vector Sigma, and indeed Wyatt, at least, says Animated has no multiversal singularity anything in it. --Jeysie 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Authorial intent can be overruled by the iron fist of Hasbro. If Hasbro says Alpha Trion is always a historian with a connection to Vector Sigma who exists in all universes, then Wyatt be slagged, that's what he is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.71.105.23 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 27 June 2010.

Sorry, but for me authorial intent can only be overruled by later canon fiction in the exact same continuity, not by a completely different continuity written by someone with no connection to the other one. Especially since changing Alpha Trion's role or adding in Vector Sigma where it doesn't exist would be changing actual canon as well, not just authorial intent.

(Plus, if Hasbro actually wanted to wield its iron fist, they would have enforced the singularities being written into Animated in the first place.) --Jeysie 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Thing is, Animated continuity by itself (completely ignoring the words of Wyatt and Isenberg) doesn't create any mutual exclusivities because it didn't take a side either way. Hasbro didn't put down it's iron fist because they didn't need to yet.72.128.51.130 00:53, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Except that if Hasbro wanted the singularities in Animated, then Isenberg and Wyatt would not be saying those things at all to begin with, since they wouldn't be the case. (Or they'd at the very least be saying "We didn't want to, but Hasbro made us" or something.) Plus, the Allspark and no Vector Sigma contradict Primus and the VS Gestalt, at least.

(I've never ever understood why the wiki is 95% sticklers for canon, except for this one case, where suddenly fanwank speculation and authorial intent (from authors who aren't even involved with the continuities in question, to boot) suddenly reigns supreme, sometimes even over actual canon.) --Jeysie 01:08, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Seriously? You're saying that Hasbro's official call on the matter isn't canon? You're not making sense here. A3 being one of the 13 is not fanwank speculation, and it looks like to me you're misunderstanding the definition of authorial intent. Wyatt and Isenberg's opinion doesn't matter because it didn't make it into the actual fiction, and it wasn't going to, because it undermines the multiversal (with singularities) framework that Hasbro is finally getting to brass tacks on. And let's face it, backpedaling at the point they are at right now isn't a good idea by any stretch of the standard. Hasbro never commented on Wyatt/Isenberg's idea because it wasn't an issue yet, more of a "well, we'll let them think so for the time being, until the fiction actually gets to that point".72.128.51.130 02:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Considering Lee wrote Reunification, as well as the bio for Nexus Prime and the tidbits about Alpha Trion helping split up Prima's sword? Yeah, I'd wager Lee has an explanation for this waiting in the wings. I can't imagine he wasn't already planning for this at that time.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:03, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Yeah, absolutely. There is very obviously something big planned for the Thirteen, and has been for some time, but they're either taking their time very deliberately and building slowly, slowly, ever-so-slowly, or they can't quite find the right venue for the story. I can't think of a worse way to do it than through IDW, so I was quite glad when I heard that idea had been scrapped after it became "more of a Hasbro thing than an IDW thing", but it seems like something that needs more exposure than just a fanclub comic, so... I'm talking like I'm on a message board, so I'll stop. - Chris McFeely 16:09, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Considering this from a wiki standpoint, I'll just say that this takes us into tremendously fertile territory for bi-monthly Q&A submissions.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:11, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I guess the problem with merging is that we first have to find out if there one, even is an explanation, and two, what said explanation is. --Jeysie 22:51, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Unless Alpha Trion is just like Vector Prime in some way, or an explanation like the ROTF Fallen, but I'll hate it if that becomes true. What I worry is that if we ask in Q&A, will they made a explanation in rush? Or should we find a way to ask the writer(s?) of Exodus? --TX55^TALK 22:57, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I see it the other way, merge the articles with a note that the explanation is unclear and fill in the explanation later. --Khajidha 22:55, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

What Hasbro says, goes. Whatever anyone else says is a trivia note at best if it conflicts with Hasbro. I say we merge, since that's the official word, with a note explaining that the merger has a few weird issues and we don't have an official explanation yet.--ZacWilliam 23:15, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

My thing is, until we have some clear idea how it all fits together structure-wise, trying to merge everything is going to be one very long pile-on mess. Especially when we try to write up how to reconcile SG and Animated Alpha Trions. --Jeysie 23:18, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

I vote for note vote until we get a clear explanation. However, if possible, I do consider using subpages if confirmed because there are a big divergence between all Alpha Trion. --TX55^TALK 23:22, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

Tx? What does that mean? Anyway, I don't really see the issue. They get a write-up on what they did in each continuity under the correct header in "Fiction" and the section starts with a continuity note that says "This doesn't seem to fit with the nature of the character as dictated by Hasbro, but who knows the conflict may be explained away in the future." Boom. Where's the "complications"? Kinda how the Sunbow Toon is handled in the Unicron and Primus articles.--ZacWilliam 23:26, 27 June 2010 (EDT)