Talk:Female Transformer

Strika

There seems to be some vehemence about Strika's status (or not) as a female.

While I agree that there is no 'definitive' evidence that Strika is female, neither is there 'definitive' evidence that most TFs are male, yet we have no difficulty accepting that fact. To dismiss the (in my view) quite reasonable assumption that Strika is female as 'fan-conjecture' ignores a number of common-sense factors:

• The fact that in the cartoon she was voiced by female voice actor - there is no instance I can recall of a female TF character being voiced by a male actor or vice versa.

• That she is referred to as Obsidian's consort (rather than associate) is not insignificant. There is a nuance of meaning in the term that implies that they are not merely associates, but their relationship would be more similar to that of husband and wife, or domestic companions. The primary meaning of consort is the spouse of a monarch, which would sit well with Obsidian's perceived status.

On this basis, I think that it is reasonable to assert that Strika is intended to be a female character until there is conclusive evidence to the contrary. Perhaps she should be included in this listing, with a disclaimer about lack of formal evidence. To do otherwise would smack of legalistic hair-splitting.

...I wasn't aware this was even in doubt. It'd require a fairly baroque misreading of Beast Machines to make Strika a dude. (BWR might change that.) -Derik 04:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I was also unaware. How can she not be a girl? Her tech spec calls her a girl. --ItsWalky 04:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to third this "what the hell?". --M Sipher 04:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

...what do you mean fan-conjecture? He identifies her as his consort. -Derik 06:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consort

Of the SIX DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS, several of which are military in nature, only ONE is romantic. And again, there is absolutely fuck-all outside of one word with multiple accurate non-romatic applications to suggest any form of romance between the two. --M Sipher 06:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? Huh, I didn't think any of the other definitions actually fit...

1. a husband or wife; spouse, esp. of a reigning monarch. Compare PRINCE CONSORT , QUEEN CONSORT.

2. one ship accompanying another.

3. a. a group of instrumentalists and singers who perform music, esp. old music. b. a group of instruments of the same family, as viols, played in concert.

4. a companion, associate, or partner.

5. accord or agreement.

That leaves us #1 or #4... on reflection, the way Obsidian says it really does fit #4 better. *checks TF ultimate guide* Huh, there it calls her his cohort, which again seems to support Obsidian meant she was his partner, not sexytime toy.

Perhaps there should be a note on the Strika page? -Derik 07:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Er... perhaps there should be a Strika page? -Derik 07:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I follow something of the "WTF?" I have created - the conjecture is not about Strika's status as a female, but about the nature of the relationship with Obsidian implied from this. Apologies for this misreading.

Having said this, some fundamental points remain - yes, there are 6 definitions of consort, but these are not equal or interchangeable - the most common or accepted usage of the term is almost always the one defined first.

If the creators of Beast Machines had intended a more neutral relationship like associate, partner or companion, they could easily have used those words, and thus have prevented this current debate. However, the fact that they chose to use the word consort does make certain implications far more reasonable. There have been few (if any) female TFs introduced who did not have some manner of romantic or intimate entanglement. Since there is little doubt of Strika's gender, it is reasonable on this basis to assert that Obsidian and Strika were in an interdependent relationship similar to a marriage. Whether this included physical intimacy is neither here nor there, since many marriages can be founded on mutual attachment without intimacy. We can debate the nature of romance until the cows come home, though this wiki is probably not the best forum for this.

So, relationship or not? --Sofaman 12:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been awhile since I watched BM... (I hope to get the DVD set for Christmas) but did Obsidian ever show any affection for Strika? Any sign or romantic involvement aside from calling her his consort? -Derik 13:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Not really. --ItsWalky 15:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"femme"

Wasn't this term used already officially? (I remember being irate about something a few weeks back...) -Derik 10:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It sounds better than "fembot" at any rate. That term evokes images of Futurama. - Nightshade83

Austin Powers comes to mind first, actually. Images of Futurama would be awesome. --ItsWalky 06:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to double-check my Transformers: Decepticons DS game, but I think Barricade uses the term "fembot" as an insult to Create-a-Bot at one point. If so, "fembot" has been used in an official capacity, unfortuately. I still think "femme" without the bot suffix sounds a lot better. -- Nightshade83

Fembot's certainly been used officially. Rattrap said it in "Nemesis," and Downshift's Cyber Key bio mentioned his "femmebot lifebond partner." I know of no uses of "femme" on it's own in canon. --KilMichaelMcC 07:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Really, the Austin Powers fembots are a pop culture reference to the Bionic Woman fembots. Right down to the faceplates falling off.--Rosicrucian^Talk 07:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

origin of the term

OK let's explain that. The way the female transformers are called "femme" is really a reference to the french language in a pun way. You see, "dude" can be translated in French by "mec", which is a slang for "homme" (the french word for "man"). Also, "mec" sound a lot like "mech" (which, but you all know that, is a slang term that refer to battle robots). And there you have it: English word "mech", (which sound like the french word "mec" which means "man" or rather "dude") refers to male robot while the French word "femme" also (used sometimes in English, as in "femme fatale") is used to refer to female transformers, in opposition to mech->mec(French word)->dude->male transformers. So, the fandom term "femme" does effectively come from a bilingual English-French pun (Mech<->Mec). --81.242.224.75 15:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, we really need two cites there. First, we need a cite proving that fans do in fact use "mech" and "femme" in fanfic to refer to male and female Transformers. Then, we need a cite saying that they explictly got this from the French words "femme" and "mec", and not, say, from Ratrap referring to Blackarachnia as an "emasculatin' fembot", from the Futurama "fembots", from the Austin Powers "fembots", or from the Bionic Woman "fembots".

So, if you can provide a link to some proof of either of those things, we'd be delighted to have it. JW 15:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

well for your second point, the term in discussion is "femme" not "fembot", no need to melt the two everybody know the term "femme fatal". As for your first point, while I have meet the term several time in different fiction, it is not that often used, so Icouldn't really provide the origin personally. Also, please not that I didn't povide the femme<->mech explanation, I just read it and only further explain the logical link between those two words. Ho and sorry to have missed the footnote, didn't have noticed it. --81.242.224.75 15:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't care enough about this to DO IT, but might I suggest that someone who wanted to try and make that case go through the records of the old Alt.transformers.fanfic usenet group from the early days of the fandom and try and track down the earliest uses of the terms in this way, and then see if any of those writers could still be found in the much larger and more disparate fandom of today so they might be asked where they got it from. Who knows if it'd work, but I think it's your only shot at "proof".

I don't know about the French Connection, but if you look here, at Transformers/Beast Wars section, you'll find LOTS of stories that use the terms "Mech" and "Femme". I especially recommend "Sparks and Plasma", "What Time We Have Left" and "Night Fire" as examples of stories that deal with male/female TF relationships in a tastefully and well-written way. --Nightshade83 15:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

One other thing tough. The online translator may be wrong. I have never ever herd the word "mec" used to refer to "pimp". There may be a confusion with "mac" who can basically be translated by "mack". But for "mec" the most accurate translation is "dude" never seen it used for "pimp". --81.242.224.75 16:11, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Please use the Preview button so that you can make your comments using one edit instead of three.

This says mec = pimp.

Point 14 here says the same.

"He was a pimp, or in the French slang, a 'mec.'"

Also see the classic movie Irma La Douce, in which Jack Lemmon ends up as Shirley MacLaine's mec.

JW 16:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I found it too, it seems that the word effectively refer to pimp but in a more positive way (it actually can be translated as "official" lover of the prostitute). But nowadays, it is almost never used in that way and is only used for "dude". [1]--81.242.224.75 16:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No offense, but I don't know if it's within the scope of the wiki to delve this deeply into fanfiction culture.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Or French culture, for that matter.

Anyway, I really don't think the current section of the page devoted to this should get any larger, but I think the brief mention we have is okay.

Plus, the "mech = pimp" bit amuses me. (Corollary: I'm easy to amuse.) JW 16:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As I have said before,I didn't put the fandom part, I just mentioned the French origin of the term.--81.242.224.75 16:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Decepticon Females

Should we have a section in here about the relative scarcity of unqualified female Decepticons in high-profile franchises? ("Unqualified" in the sense of "not former Autobots gone bad".) JW 14:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea, considering there's only 3 I can think of in North American releases -- Strika in Beast Machines, Flamewar in the Timelines comics (though those were BotCon exclusives so probably don't count) and Thunderblast in Cybertron. We need more bad girls that have always been bad, and will stay that way. I like the idea of SPOILERS Blackarachnia in Animated being Elita-1, but I would still like to see more pure Decepticon femmes as well. A movieverse Decepticon femme would be cool too.

Hell, I'm just happy that Hasbro's finally realizing that girls [2] play with Transformers too. --Nightshade83 22:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, Strika wasn't a Decepticon, and she (like Obsidian) might have been an Autobot before becoming a Vehicon. JW 22:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Strika's faction, and indeed her role in Cybertron's history, are maddeningly vague.--Rosicrucian^Talk 22:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so that makes just one female Decepticon who has stayed a Decepticon EVER in any cartoon, and she's ...well, Thunderblast. *Sigh*. At least I can pretend my Arcee black repaint is Flamewar. --Nightshade83 22:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"In fiction" articles

I was kind of wondering, this is one of the few articles not really written "in fiction". Large parts of it are "behind the scenes" kind of thing which are usually reserved to the Notes section. "Originally Simon Furman stated that he would not use female Transformers in IDW..." "Arcee was originally going to be featured as part of the cast of the Transformers film, but was cut..."

Are there some articles, like this one, where this is OK? - Starfield 09:32, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

I've been wanting to rewrite this article for ages for stuff like this, but well, I suck at writing. As far as I can see, this article has no justification to be an exception to the standards. I'd strongly prefer to see it become look more like a regular "trait"-article (like Mini-Cassette and Triple Changer). Geewunling 11:35, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

I think this article is just fine the way it is, and an "in-universe" rewrite wouldn't improve it in any way. --KilMichaelMcC 16:00, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

We do have some out-of-universe articles because they tend to work better that way, such as Spark. --ItsWalky 16:30, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

Gallery

Is it just me, or would the gallery of toys work better on the List of female Transformers page? Khajidha 16:48, 9 December 2009 (EST)

At the very least, it should be on its own page, or, alternatively, a category, so there isn't 800kb of images on there. --abates 17:22, 9 December 2009 (EST)

Maybe a subpage/suite-type thing? Khajidha 17:24, 9 December 2009 (EST)

To be honest, I don't see why we need it at all. We already have a list of female characters which links to all of their articles which have toy pictures at the bottom. Why the need to see them all in one place? --abates 17:41, 9 December 2009 (EST)

I actually agree, but wasn't sure if others did. I brought it up because (if it really needs to be kept) this doesn't seem like the proper place to keep it. Your suggestion of a category is looking better and better. Anyone else want to weigh in? Khajidha 17:44, 9 December 2009 (EST)

...I could note that we already have a Female Transformer toy images category... --Jeysie 17:56, 9 December 2009 (EST)

Probably best to remove the gallery and just insert a link to the category page, then. Of course, I still feel it should be on the "List" page instead of this one. Khajidha 18:00, 9 December 2009 (EST)

There is little harm in having a link to a category in multiple places. --63.203.180.99 18:29, 9 December 2009 (EST)

It's okay to be removed from the page, but I'd prefer moving to Female Transformer/toys as a subpage. Female Transformer toy images category can only show the image, but it is less organized (unlike Unreleased toy/gallery — it doesn't include any link/character name/product name such as "Transmetal 2 Blackarachnia". (I create a toylist is because not all female characters have their own toys.) --TX55^TALK 20:02, 9 December 2009 (EST)

As it is now, I don't see much point in keeping the toy gallery. However, I'd like to see it get a subpage if the bigger picture of feamle toy history can be put it as a "to sell toys"-explanation to why the fiction regarding female TFs is as it is. How female characters didn't/don't sell as well as male characters, cancellation of Beet Papil's toy, the lack of (non-redeco) toys for many female TFs, cancellation of Arcee's toys, the reason for Nightracer's existence, etc. Something like that should give a gallery a good reason to exist. Geewunling 04:10, 10 December 2009 (EST)

Just a quick note to let y'all know that I've just added a "Female Transformers toy" tag to all the Female TF toy images on the wiki. Khajidha 11:15, 13 December 2009 (EST)

Archives

Temporarily files which may be used for a subpage in some day.

Original texts have been hidden with a comment tag.

Romances

Should the romance section possibly be moved to its own article? It seems to be quite a bit large for a subsection of this one, and could reasonably be expanded upon. Some material from Reproduction might be relevant to such a new article as well. Khajidha 13:03, 26 December 2009 (EST)

That might not be a bad idea... considering we have articles for stuff like relatives, reproduction, "sexuality" in the Humanization article, and robot/squishie romances, it seems like an odd omission to not really have a dedicated robot/robot romance article. Or rather, currently all of our robot/robot romance stuff is kind of scattered around in various places of said other articles. --Jeysie 14:47, 26 December 2009 (EST)

Actually, I have been wanting to write a "Romance" (because "Sexuality" is only a bit less correct term) article for quite some time, merging this article's Romance section, Robot-Fleshling romance and a bit from the Humanization article's Sexuality section into one (and adding a much-needed list of those cases in which a Transformer's interest didn't go to something alive). However, thus far I have not found the time to get to it. Would greatly appreciate to see someone else make a start. Geewunling 14:48, 26 December 2009 (EST)

P.S., you know, if no one else does it within twelve hours, I will kick myself to finally do it. Geewunling 15:04, 26 December 2009 (EST)

Done. Feel free to give advice in it's talk page 'cos it's not that great. --Ninjabot33 17:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)

You may want to join forces with Geewunling: "User:Geewunling/Romance-Sandbox" --Jeysie 18:03, 13 January 2010 (EST)

Now that page has already been made that sandbox is no longer needed. --Ninjabot33 12:20, 2 February 2010 (EST)

If you want to ditch it entirely, you can stick a {{speedy{{#if:||{{{2}}}|}}}} tag (for speedy delete) on the top of the page with a note that you don't need it, and that will let the admins know to delete it. --Jeysie 12:47, 2 February 2010 (EST)

Ratchet

I feel the fact that G1 Ratchet was originally going to be female needs to be brought up on this page somehow. I'm at a loss as to how, though. --Monzo 10:52, 31 December 2010 (EST)

It should, but then again, this page is lacking a lot. I've tried several months ago to make a completely new fT article, but quit when I realized the design wasn't working. Still have to pick it up again, but in the meantime everyone else is invited to edit it or drop suggestions on the talk page. Geewunling 11:43, 31 December 2010 (EST)

Since we were invited to talk amongst ourselves

The obvious question is: if it is beyond the scope of the wiki, why is it in the opening paragraph? - Starfield 23:32, 11 September 2013 (EDT)

Because maybe, just maybe, awareness of a bigger problem and how it affects our little object-de-fandom might be worth mentioning? Just a thought. --M Sipher 23:40, 11 September 2013 (EDT)

I don't think this is an issue the wiki can just dip its toe into. The way it sounds now it is like the wiki is playing dumb, like it has no idea why there are few females. It sounds like the wiki thinks Cybertron is a real place that should have a realistic male/female ratio of alien robots or something. As if there actually is a realistic ratio of male and female alien robots. In reality, it isn't a mystery any more than it is a mystery why all the important Ponies are girls. - Starfield 17:23, 12 September 2013 (EDT)

You're deliberately being obtuse and stupid, right? Verify this for us, please. --M Sipher 22:48, 12 September 2013 (EDT)

Please consider that some of us are uninterested in personal social justice campaigns, and just want to read about the vagarities of giant robots that spend most of their time beating the crap out of each other.-RAKninja 02:56, 14 September 2013 (EDT)

You, don't you start being obtuse and stupid, too. This is an important issue. If you don't got anything to add that's thoughtful, than get off the talkpage. Escargon 10:45, 14 September 2013 (EDT)

What is an important issue? The new introductory paragraph is vague. Deliberately vague, it would seem. It stops short of giving any useful information. Any actual point is pushed into to the "beyond the scope of the wiki" territory. That's what I mean when the wiki shouldn't just dip its toe into the issue. If the wiki isn't going to complete its thought, it shouldn't bring it up. OK, the introductory paragraph notes the rarity of female Transformers and suggests the rarity of female Transformers is part of some bigger argument about gender equality in real life (IRL). Assume the reader doesn't frequent the same internet forums you do. How are the two connected? Does one cause the other? Are there few female alien robots in Transformers fiction because there is gender inequality IRL? Is the world IRL a less gender equal place because of the high ratio of male/female alien robots in Transformers fiction? - Starfield 11:41, 14 September 2013 (EDT)

Starfield, knock it the fuck off. Escargon 19:55, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

I don't think the introduction as it stands is as vague as you're saying. To me at least it seems pretty clear that it's saying the gender inequality in Transformers is part of gender inequality in the greater entertainment industry. --abates 20:16, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

I'm with abates on this one. The article is simply making the point that gender inequity in TFs is not a phenomenon that needs explanation separate from gender inequity in the wider world. --Khajidha 20:48, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

Transformers is not general "entertainment." It is a niche. My Little Pony is a niche. What are we talking about? Does the wiki really expect Transformers to have 50.1% females? It is mostly about fighting and punching and shooting. And yes, it is about alien robots, who don't, out of necessity, even have to have a society with equal numbers of manbots and womanbots. In fact, they don't. Transformers, as a species, have far fewer females. But the females that do exist get the same kind of jobs cutting and slashing Decepticons. Equality for the feminine minority.

I will give you the IDW Arcee storyline, though. That was bizarre. "Autobot completely flips out after forcibly given a feminine gender assignment." - Starfield 22:17, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

starfield go away --ItsWalky 18:18, 12 September 2013 (EDT)

I didn't think there was anything wrong with the old version. -LV 19:57, 15 September 2013 (EDT)