Talk:Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)

Character list

Should we add one, now that Roddy's been confirmed, (complete with twisty tache)

I think we should, since the story seems that it will revolve around Cliffjumper. Rodimus is confirmed so is 'Jumper so I think we should. Anyone else think we should?AWT88 17:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

And now, a year later, this was clearly the wrong tactic, as the list has grown ridiculously long and unwieldy. A "Category: Shattered Glass characters" should get the job done just as well without putting a stupidly large list in the middle of this page. -- Repowers 18:06, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Agree. -Derik 18:15, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Definitely agreed. We don't do this for any other franchise.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:17, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

I think it dates from when the Shattered Glass page did double duty as the comic and franchise page. We split them late, and it was a bit messy. -Derik 18:26, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Separate Continuity?

So Siph brought it up and Steve-o and I talked about it for a bit... Anyway, how are we going to treat the characters from BotCon 2008? From what we know about the set, it's clearly just G1-but-evil, so I don't think it's different enough to pass off as a separate continuity family. On the other hand, it'd be cleaner to give them their own pages. Meanwhile, pages like Optimus Prime's are long enough that even his fiction sections need to begin being split off anyway.

What I think we should do, at the moment, is treat Mirror Optimus Prime as a split from G1 Prime's page. As.... [[Optimus Prime (G1 mirror)]], maybe? Also, uh, create some [[Optimus Prime (G1 cartoon)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1 Marvel)]] pages and the like. Akin to Wikipedia, Optimus Prime's main page should have abbreviated versions of these sections which link to the full versions on separate pages. --ItsWalky 02:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not so sure I'm up for splitting the pages around. True, some like Optimus and Megatron are quite large, but some of them are also quite small. I just don't think that we should split up just because a page is getting large. We've discussed that kinda idea at Wookieepedia before, and we concluded that it would just be easier to keep it all at one page. -- SFH 02:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm also against splitting up large pages of main characters, since keeping it all in one page would help readers get the full history of the character (well as much as we've written) from the various continuities. Easier for editing too, if one doesn't need to keep track of two different fictional versions of the same character on two different pages (three if you also have to add a summerised version on the main Optimus Prime (G1) page).

As for Mirror Prime... how about we just call him Optimus Prime (Mirror)? --FFN 03:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Technically, he shouldn't be a new page, so long as he's clearly a G1 Prime. --ItsWalky 03:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps giving them Timelines parentheticals would be valid?--Rosicrucian^Talk 02:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Look who all's in the set... Prime, Jazz, Bumblebee, Grimlock and Starscream. Aren't all those pages already hideously long? --M Sipher 02:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC) And oh yeah. I'm against splitting up the Fiction sections. Toys into their own, yes. But I'm leery of splitting up Fiction. --M Sipher 03:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So in ten years, when Optimus Prime's page is three times as long, that'll be okay? That sounds a little ridiculous. --ItsWalky 03:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

About fiction sections: What Walky and I discussed perhaps hasn't been clearly explained here: We're not saying to take the fiction section out entirely like we did with "toys". The idea is that in the case of very long articles (like Prime's), we can take, say, the cartoon subsection, create a new article out of it, and in its spot on the main Prime page just have a summary of the high points with a note "see this other article for all the details". (Of course, his cartoon subsection right now isn't especially complete anyway. He appears in nearly every episode of Seasons 1-2 but most of those events aren't mentioned.) Important stuff in the main article, excruciating detail in a separate article. Perhaps it's not quite time for that yet, but eventually it will be. Like Walky says, G1 Prime's fiction section is just going to get longer and longer.

About Shattered Glass guys: If we treat them as distinct characters with their own pages, I think "Shattered Glass" is the appropriate parenthetical. Definitely not "mirror" since that word doesn't seem to be in the description of the set. There should definitely be linking between the Shattered and normal articles, though. Perhaps even with the normal guys having a Timeslines: Shattered Glass subsection that says "see this other article for his evil counterpart".

--Steve-o 03:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I suppose that's okay, if we keep the main highlights in the main article. But I also agree that now is not the time. -- SFH 03:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Then when? Optimus Prime's page, even sans toys, is already twice as long than is recommended. --ItsWalky 03:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering that we treat Universe Obsidian, Tankor, and Inferno as distinct characters with their own pages despite just being alternate timeline variations, then clearly the Shattered Glass guys should get their own articles. "Shattered Glass" would be my choice of parenthetical as well. --KilMichaelMcC 03:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I've been against splitting those dudes up for some time. --ItsWalky 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I vote for these dudes getting their own pages. If they're "mirror" versions, they have completely different personalities and hence would need completely new profile writeups as well as fiction sections. If you wanna compare Tankor and Obsidian, they were basically the same dudes; they'd just made different choices along the line. This doesn't seem to be the case for the Shattered Glass guys. -- Repowers 21:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, PacifistPrime here.

I just thought I'd chip in with my two cents, since I created these first Shattered Glass articles last night. I think we should keep the articles for these characters separate, at least for now. Although yes, obviously, it does appear to be the case that Shattered Glass is just "Mirror G1" (as it were), we don't actually know that yet. I mean, to be fair, I think some of us are gettng ahead of ourselves here. Until we know otherwise for sure, I'm of the opinion that we should treat these as separate characters (just like the alternate universe Optimus Prime from the Armada comic. I mean, if he gets his own page, then I think these guys should.

And I certainly think "Shattered Glass" is the preferable paranthetical, since there is (as yet) no other official term like "mirror" being used in relation to the set. Furthermore, it fits with our general naming convention of using the title of the character's native franchise/continuity, e.g. Thrust (Armada), Tankor (BM), Grimlock (Animated) etc..

Cheers, --PacifistPrime

Hey, PP, could you sign your posts with four tildes, so we can see what time you made the post? It helps for keeping track of discussions.

On-topic, we're staring at the fundamental problem of how "different" a continuity needs to be, to no longer be G1. The most inclusive definition seems to be, "If all the robot characters have the same names and approximate roles as characters from the G1 toyline, it's a G1 continuity. Unless it's the Movie." Time period is irrelevant, human characters are irrelevant, when and how the robots came to Earth is irrelevant, altmodes are irrelevant, the origin of the TF species is irrelevant . . . et cetera.

But, if want to include Shattered Glass as a G1 continuity, we need to drop "approximate role". Unless "who's the good guy and who's the bad guy" is not considered to be part of "role". JW 21:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you gotta remember that part of the reason for the continuity family splits here on the Wiki is simple bookkeeping and convenience. The Movie has a big G1 influence; it could also be considered a ground-up reinvention; but either way, it heralded an unprecedented avalanche of new toys, characters and fiction. That alone was a good reason to separate it. By contrast, I don't think Shattered Glass will go much further than a story or two, some bios, and a small set of toys. -- Repowers 21:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"part of the reason for the continuity family splits here on the Wiki is simple bookkeeping and convenience"

Granted. However, part of our current problem is that a lot of little things have added up to become a big thing. If OP (G1) was just the Marvel comic and the original cartoon, he'd be more manageable, but a bajillion little G1-ish bits have been added on to him. We can keep adding little bits on to him, or we can say that some of them are different enough to warrant a new page. The universe in which he's a murderous fiend fits that bill.

(Our criteria can't sensibly be size, after all.) JW 22:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I'm all for giving the characters their own pages -- they share names and bodies, but they have new personalities. But it sounded like some people are wondering if SG should be a whole different continuity family, which IMO is overkill -- I think it can easily fit under the G1 umbrella. I might have just misunderstood what someone was saying, too. -- Repowers 22:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on what is known so far about the set/story, I have the following positions:

1. Shattered Glass should be placed under the G1 umbrella. Yes, Prime is now evil, but he's still the leader, etc.. His role isn't that different.
2. Each Shattered Glass character should have their own character page, with links back and forth to their "regular" character. Despite thinking of Shattered Glass as being G1, I think that the character differences in concert with bookkeeping/convenience factors make splitting the best option. I don't want my Bumblebee fiction section to be full of all this stuff about "normal" Bumblebees and then in the middle there's this random evil Bumblebee who has no fictional connections to all the surrounding material.

--Steve-o 17:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that works. --ItsWalky 17:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Steve-o, I'm curious as to what you mean by "fictional connection". I mean, is the fictional connection between OP (IDW) and OP (Marvel) stronger than the fictional connection between OP (Marvel) and OP (Shattered Glass)?

(Of course, all this essentially gets back to the problem that OP (Marvel) and OP (Sunbow) are from two different universes, but were represented by the same toy(s), and came into being at the same time, so they're "the same guy". I can't find a way of disagreeing with that which doesn't lead to more problems than it solves. Like, those G1 toys who didn't appear in fiction — are they from the Marvel universe, the Sunbow universe, or somewhere else entirely? Bleh!) JW 17:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"Connection" isn't really the right word, but it was the best I could come up with at the time. "Similarity", maybe? I mean, the Bumblebee fiction would read like...

Continuity X: Bumblebee loves humans and does lots of funny and cute stuff to help save the universe. Continuity Y: Bumblebee loves humans and does lots of different but still funny and cute stuff to help save the universe. Shattered Glass: Bumblebee is hardcore evil and wants to kill you for no particular reason. Continuity Z: Bumblebee loves humans and does yet another set of funny and cute stuff to help save the universe.{{#if:|{{{quote2}}}}}{{#if:|{{{2}}}{{#if:|, {{{3}}}|}}|}}

And that's just not a sensible page. Makes way more sense to split him out.

--Steve-o 19:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Heya, PacifistPrime here again. I agree that the characters should have separate pages (I mean, if "Optimus Prime (Worlds Collide)" gets a page, then surely...!), but I'm unclear about the designation of the overall continuity/universe. Are we simply talking about category tags here, or something else? From a metafictional, rather than organisational, point of view I've always preferred (somewhat controversially) to have a more conservative view of G1 than the "everything but the movie" approach favoured here. In my view, broad issues of toy-accurate altmodes and basic storyline-premise/character mythology are pretty important, which is why I've always argued that the IDWverse and the MovieVerse are each different enough to all prior versions of G1 (even if they're not equally dissimilar) that they should both be considered to fall within or without the G1 continuity family. And, in developments since I originally aired this opinion, I'd say the same now goes for Transformers Animated, which is also evidently a deeply G1-ish universe.

Indeed, now that we've got Animated in the mix, I'd argue that it's become even less defensible that the IDWverse is being categorised here as part of G1 when these other two aren't. Although it takes some cues from the MovieVerse, granted, I think it's a pretty hard sell to deem Animated as being all that much more radically different from G1 than the IDWverse, given that both use almost exclusively G1 characters with non-G1-toy accurate designs and drastically different basic storyline premises, human characters and background mythos. Apart from a debatable organisational imperative to avoid splitting articles, I increasingly fail to see a reasonable rational for lumping IDW in with G1 when Animated and Movie are not.

But I digress. As far as Shattered Glass ' category is concerned, I think it should be regarded as a separate continuity but probably not belonging to a separate continuity family, at least until we know more.

Also, aren't we jumping the gun a bit with the Timelines categorisation? Sure, it's extremely probable that it'll get that designation, but shouldn't we wait until this is official?

Cheers, PacifistPrimePP 07:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

*dittos everything PP posted about IDW* - SanityOrMadness 19:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So, now the convention's happened, and the comic's out. Shattered Glass seems to be basically a whacked-out anti-G1, but it's also completely different from anything else we've ever seen, 'cause all of Cliffjumper's energy traces and even their Sparks are polarity-reversed. Also, transformation seems to have been a relatively recent invention, but that's not as different as the whole Spark/Ember thing. But the Ember thing points to something apart from the "standard" differences between, say, the RiD and the Animated continuities. How do we handle that? Omnibus 00:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys, I've been chatting with Derrick J Wyatt about SG, and he referenced the regular continuity as Normal Glass. It's quite funny and we that term frequently. What's the best way to incorporate that term into the wiki? Can we slip it in one of the articles when referring to the regular universe? I'm new to this and don't want to derail anything. --Silvershot 15:02, 6 January 2012 (EST)

It is definitely not something to add to a toy's write-up. "Normal Glass" is a fan-created terminology (even if from Derrick Wyatt) that, for the moment, shouldn't exist outside of funny captions. --ItsWalky 16:09, 6 January 2012 (EST)

Bring in the funny

Since this is all about evil twins, I submit that the article is in desperate need of a joke about how they will mainly be identified by their goatees. Anyone else?

(Clearly, however, it would have to be written so that its status as a joke is clear, lest anyone be misled) Buttbutt 01:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Just remember that Omega Trion would have no facial hair, unlike his good universe counterpart. --Blue Spider 05:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The comic

...oh God, there's comic preview pages on the Botcon site.

The whole thing is drawn to look like a G2 homage. Linestyle, coloring, everything.

It even has a huge sprinkling of Furmanisms.--Rosicrucian^Talk 05:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be April Fools? I'm not seeing anything on the Botcon page. All I see is a drawing of a robotic hand on the TF Club main page. They say the comic previews will go up on the 3rd. --Detour 05:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, found em. [1] --Detour 05:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Not linked on the main site, but hosted there. These brought tears to my eyes. They're just made of 100% pure win.--Rosicrucian^Talk 05:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

This is unmitigated awesome. I love it. They've even got the Double Pretender spider in the background on the second page, wot? The good versions of the evil Botcon characters are pure hilarity.--MCRG 06:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Is that... is that Shattered Glass Cicadacon? Dude!

Edit: No... no, wait, I'm an idiot. Still bucket-loads of awesome, though - Semysane 07:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh lordy, they're trying to kill the Wiki.

We've got:

• Astrotrain (Shattered Glass)
• Stonecruncher (Shattered Glass)
• Tailwind (Shattered Glass)
• Submarauder (Shattered Glass)
• Bug Bite (SG)
• "Buzzclaw (SG)" or Dirge (Shattered Glass) (or "Dirge (Shattered Glass Insecticon)")
• Buzzsaw (Shattered Glass)
• "Deathsaurus (Timelines)"
• Dirge (Shattered Glass) (or "Dirge (Shattered Glass Seeker)") or "Thrust (Timelines)"
• Overbite (Shattered Glass)
• Seawing (Shattered Glass)
• Snaptrap (Shattered Glass)
• Tentakil (Shattered Glass)
• Thundercracker (Shattered Glass)

If they use both Dirges, I will kill somebody. —Interrobang 07:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

To keep things from cluttering up the wiki, I'd suggest a general Mayhem Suppression Squad page for those guys, seeing as they're only in one panel. Point out that they're Good-Alternate-Universe-Doppelgangers of their 'real' versions, link to said 'real' versions from there and call it a day. Omnibus 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be the most sensible approach. Should have a sizable trivia section explaining that every one of these was a convention exclusive.--Rosicrucian^Talk 19:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole "I, Grimlock, wot?" thing transcends cool into sublime. JW 11:25, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh my christ. They actually made this universe hilariously awesome. Way to fucking go, Savage & Co. -hx 13:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If you ask me, this makes all the difference. All the goofiness of the concept of this universe, all the silly looks of the figures, all of this is vindicated in this moment with this the most sublime of convention comics. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for the Diamond edition of this.--Rosicrucian^Talk 17:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

...well crud. It was just Sipher pulling one over on us. It could have been beautiful. I want blood, Sipher! Blooooood!--Rosicrucian^Talk 17:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I KNEW it was too well-written to be a Botcon comic! --74.57.3.251 17:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC) (Detour at work)

I dub this "Shattered Expectations"... though I don't think we're DONE with this goofyass take at all. At least, not if we have any say about it. --M Sipher 18:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

...So, horribly-dashed expectations of awesomeness aside, how Official are the April Fools' Pages? Does Shattered Glass Jazz get a "Shattered Expectations" sub-heading along the lines of the Marvel Comics Continuity/Animated Continuity divide where it says "He was totally G2ishly Evil Mr. T"? Omnibus 18:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually think we ought to do exactly that. Jazz talking like Mr. T is too much fun to go unchronicled.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Depending on how utterly shit the finished comic is, I hereby present the possibility of forgoing "Shattered Expectations" (which could mean something better than what you expected) and using "Shattered Hopes" (which means "Man, this is shit"). - Chris McFeely 19:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

These definately need to be in there. Especially since Fun Pub now plans to go back to them at some point since the fandom that they thought would hate it actually loved these better than just about everything else they've ever done. :) Not sure the best way to tag them though.71.235.142.128 19:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, what's Wiki policy on images from Shattered Expectations? Except for the APRIL FOOL'S! page, they aren't actually officially hosted anywhere public, even though they were intentionally uploaded and kept incredibly-obviously-easily-discovered-secret with the intention of having someone figuring out how to incredibly-obviously easily discover and share them.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omnibus (talk • contribs){{#if:| {{{2}}}|}}.

Good question. Sipher, can we consider these to be officially released material (and thus fair game for comic panels)?--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be all good. I mean, it was MEANT to be spread... like your mom. --M Sipher 21:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I'm going to go ahead and ask if anyone want's to put up what the preview pages (posted today) on the fiction, or just leave it with the joke Fun Pub pulled over on us? I'm running tight on time right now and if no one has seen the 3 pages, it depicts the real Cliffjumper, going through some kinda rift on Earth and ending up on a Cybertron that is all kinds of backwards for him. Not to mention that Hot Rod looks awesome in Decepticon colors and a freaking goatte. Just wanna throw this out there because I'm not the best when it comes to writing some of this stuff. Whadda think?AWT88 01:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

...if Hot Rod with a Spock-style Van Dyke is the bagged exclusive for the convention, I may have to sell my blood to be able to afford him.--Rosicrucian^Talk 02:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Continuity family

I think we can safely say that it's no longer "unknown" how Shattered Glass will fit into existing continuity families. We've got Cliffjumper arriving immediately after his plot in the Fan Club comic. It's pretty plainly in the world-hopping Timelines continuity family now.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Timelines isn't a "continuity family" at all. It's an over-arching name that includes things from multiple continuity families. Landquake (Timelines) is from the Unicron Trilogy. Games of Deception is a Timelines story that takes place in G1. Etc. --KilMichaelMcC 18:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Kil is right. Timelines is not a continuity family, but a bunch of loosely-affiliated stories that take place across several continuity families. --ItsWalky 19:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I'm inclined to believe it's part of G1, since everyone so far (even the hi-then-dies) is a direct analog to a G1 character. The only exception is the April Fools version with Cybertron Astrotrain and his Mini-Cons, and even then, that's just a G1 analog dude. If Hot Shot or Tidal Wave show up or something, I'll change my mind, but until then...--ItsWalky 19:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We should call it the "1G" continuity. --Thylacine 2000 19:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The 3-page preview actually makes it seem like this is the classics universe, and something caused the autobots to become evil and the decepticons to become good--Autobotx1010 20:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really getting that impression at all. Cliffjumper had a counterpart in this universe, and that counterpart is either dead or working for the Decepticons. Ruckus seemed to recognize him.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"I'm inclined to believe it's part of G1" I dunno, with Razorclaw in there, this timeline has prominent Mini-Cons. (No doubt creations of the heroic planet-regurgitating Unicron.) I'd say it's a whole new beast. JW 21:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Classics has Mini-Cons. (And is Razorclaw even a Mini-con? They refer to him as a Predacon, shrunk down. Isn't he supposed to be G1 Razorclaw?) -75.168.112.43 21:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Razorclaw is only the victim of a shrink-ray in Shattered Expectations. We don't know what he is in the real comic.--Rosicrucian^Talk 00:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Negative Primax/G1

Hey, since this franchise is labeled as negative versions of Primax(G1), shouldn't we start putting "Shattered glass version of the Generation One continuity family" instead of "Shattered Glass continuity family". I mean, you people find some difficulties grouping continuities, now that they've told us how, shoudn't we follow? This wiki is about official TF canon, after all, so we should follow it as closely as we can. Plus, the universal stream thing isn't "unfollowable" or inaccurate like that Solar system issue (I've also noticed that SG isn't even mentioned in the Continuity family article).

I'm not trying to make people mad, if all of you are too tired or busy to change the descriptions, I'd gladly help as much as I can.

Item42 00:17, 14 February 2010 (EST)

We do consider it a continuity family. Apparently the info just never got ported over to the other page. --Jeysie 01:06, 14 February 2010 (EST)

(In case my suggestion got misunderstood)- I'm not suggesting we move/merge/split any of the articles, just put Shattered Glass in the G1 continuity family. This mostly involves changing the introduction section of character/concept articles, which can be finished (even if only done by a few people) in a few days. I'm not suggesting anything difficult, this basically amounts to making Continuity family=cluster. Since that article has a bit that goes:

• Primax—the Generation 1 continuity family:
  • Primax 984.0 Gamma—the Marvel Comics US continuity
  • Primax 207.0 Epsilon—the Classics continuity, a splinter timeline of the Marvel Comics continuity
  • Primax 1291.0 Zeta—the "Another Time & Place" text story continuity, a dead-end splinter thread of the Marvel Comics continuity
  • Primax 095.0 Beta—the universal stream that's home to Generation 2 Bullet Bike's tech spec bio
  • Primax 787.3 Alpha—the Japanese The Headmasters cartoon continuity.
  • Primax 109.0 Beta—Original home of Alternity Convoy.
  • Primax -408.24 Epsilon—if one breaches "the dimensional barrier between the Positive Polarity Universes" and the Negative, one can reach the Shattered Glass universe.

Basically suggesting that Continuity family=cluster like I wish it to be, but it rather disagrees with the continuity identifiers on many pages that say "Shattered Glass continuity family".

Bottom line, if my suggestion can't be followed(even if I can do most of the work myself), just make this stuff more consistent. Please(long statement i made there). Item42 09:21, 14 February 2010 (EST)

It is consistent. Shattered Glass is considered a continuity family, so we structure our continuity notes accordingly. See #Separate Continuity? for the reasoning on why it's a continuity family and not, for our purposes, considered a part of the G1 continuity family.

I think the in-universe label was basically a best-fit kludge. Since the collective Shatteredverse is (IIRC) a mirror of the entire normal multiverse, giving it its own cluster name would be woefully inadequate. So the minus sign is its designator instead, and the "Primax" part is merely a best fit. When you further consider that there are several non-G1 characters in the current main SG continuity, it's really easier to go with what we already do, IMHO.

Plus if you want to get really technical, the current main SG continuity is a mirror of the Classicsverse specifically, according to Pete Sinclair. It's not a mirror of the whole G1 continuity family anyway. And I really don't think "in the 'Shattered Glass' version of the Classics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family" is a desirable continuity note to have on everyone.

Or the TL;DR version that I've said elsewhere: "On the gripping hand, it's not like SG doesn't defy every other attempt to apply standard rules to it without there being utter weirdness". Trying to shoehorn SG into everything else is always going to produce some oddities, so might as well go with what makes the most sense and is the least convoluted.

If we did ever get something that forced us to differentiate, I'd prefer to go with "from the <blank> portion of the 'Shattered Glass' continuity family". --Jeysie 10:05, 14 February 2010 (E)

Alright, since my suggestion isn't usable, I guess this means that if they make negative versions of other universal stream clusters, you will have to think of new continuity family names for them. Example: If there is a negative Aurex story, you can't call it part of the Unicron Trilogy or any other preexisting thing. Also(to avoid misunderstanding), my suggestion was mainly to follow the canon more closely. Item42 08:16, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Since "Shattered Glass" is the continuity family, that's already figured out, actually. We might need to think up continuity names, though, depending on how people wanted to phrase it, and whether the TFCC folks gave us an official name for the new SG continuity or not.

As for following the canon more closely, the universal stream is deliberately an in-universe version of the wiki's classification scheme, actually, so it's the other way around. Plus we go by what makes sense for the wiki's organization, and by our organization rules things are already being done correctly, and changing it IMHO would make things more confusing, not less. --Jeysie 08:50, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Hey, I've noticed that the upper right portion of the article actually says "Generation 1 continuity family". Why so inconsistent? Also, if my suggestion does get through, I might actually need help due to this. And another thing, why are you the only one dicussing this? Am I being ignored?Item42 13:05, 15 February 2010 (EST)

(Okay, I think that sounded a bit too whiny, sorry.) Item42 13:09, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Jeysie is kind of the residential Shattered Glass expert. The rest isn't ignoring you, just letting the one with the most knowledge do the talking the rest doesn't have much to add to. If it's a second/third opinion you want: I think it would become too much of an organizational mess at the moment to bother adjusting the SG pages to fit in all the details of its status as mirrorverse. It's not a separate continuity, no, but for the purposes of this wiki, it's a whole lot easier to "treat" it like one outside of the franchise page. Geewunling 13:20, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Thanks Geewunling, I guess that helped. I also noticed that the inconsistency in this page is due to Template:Nav-SG. Wait, "but for the purposes of this wiki, it's a whole lot easier to "treat" it like one outside of the franchise page", so that upper-left corner inconsistency was intentional? It's really small, so I think that can be easily fixed. I would, but your statement(which I quoted) makes it confusing. As if this wiki is intentionally incocsistent. Anyway, should I edit the template to say "Shattered Glass continuity family" instead of "Generation 1 continuity family"? Item42 13:49, 15 February 2010 (EST)

I think it's probably more like I'm the one one who really cares enough about this discussion to, er, discuss it, but I appreciate the vote of confidence, Geewunling. :>

As for the Nav button, I put it there because I couldn't think of a better "continuity family" link to put there. I guess we could just leave it off a la the Robots in Disguise page (since we don't yet need a separate "Shattered Glass continuity family" page to link to). Either way, it doesn't mean anything important; it's just some convenient linkage.

And, actually, the wiki is intentionally inconsistent. In the sense that we have guidelines we try to follow 99% of the time, but we're not afraid to deviate a little if a certain situation differs enough that it needs some special case treatment. See Help:Ignore all standards. --Jeysie 14:42, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Um, I think there's some sort of misunderstanding here. "Ignore all standards" refers to what to do when we have no examples to follow. That's not what I meant by "intentionally inconsistent". Oh well, I guess I should move on.Item42 14:56, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Obviously you didn't actually read the page, as you misunderstand its intent. "In situations where the standards intended to prevent confusion would instead contribute to it, common sense should rule." Treating SG like part of the G1 continuity family would, for our organizational purposes, cause more issues than it solves, so we're deliberately a little inconsistent. --Jeysie 15:12, 15 February 2010 (EST)

The thing with Shattered Glass is that while it is a mirrorverse of G1, it is A.) not an exclusively G1 mirrorverse and B.) there is no predictability in what exactly is mirrored (by which the mirrorverse is faring its own course). It would not be the most convenient organizationally speaking if we'd go with the usual guidelines for continuities and subcontinuities and shoehorn SG in G1, because unlike all other subcontinuities of G1, SG is not actually part of it. It breaks with what the wiki has agreed on to regard a continuity based on a similar set of characters, setting, etc, because as mirrorverse, all those prerequisites are completely different. I see little harm done in the top header noting SG is part of G1, but the thing is that that is not true in the sense we usually say something is part of G1. It is informatively more accurate to note SG as its own continuity batch, and have the franchise page deal with its status as 'part' of G1. Geewunling 17:31, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much done with this discussion. A bit confused, but I feel like moving on to other stuff, so... (off to other issues) Item42 02:27, 16 February 2010 (EST)

Intro portion of article

Another thing(regarding this article, not Shattered Glass in general since my above idea seems to have been turned down or suffers from lack of people caring),why does the intro portion have ""Shattered Glass" is a Negative Polarity Universe, located at universal stream Primax -408.24 Epsilon. "? As if it's only one universe(since this article is about the entire SG franchise). I'm almost certain there's more than one Shattered Glass universe already in the canon. Shattered Expectations should be Primax -408.1 Gamma/Beta and the toyline should be Primax -607.27 Beta since The alpha Trion toy was released at BotCon 2007. Even if my theoretical designations are wrong, it's pretty certain that this franchise takes place in more than one universal stream. So, is it okay if I remove that "located at universal stream Primax -408.24 Epsilon" thing? Since it can only apply to the main SG continuity.Item42 08:33, 15 February 2010 (EST)

We could try rewording it to make it more clear that the universal stream refers to just the main continuity, with other SG continuities having unknown designators. We shouldn't simply delete it, though, since IMHO having universal stream info on various appropriate pages is a good little trivia idea. --Jeysie 08:50, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Define Shattered Glass continuity family

Okay, I take that back. Why does the Quadwal negative thing count as shattered Glass? Real life Jim Sorenson suggested that it should be Jim Sorenson (SG), but that got turned down, see "Talk:Jim Sorenson (Animated)"(incidentally, that discussion has Walky telling us:

Shattered Expectations happens in Primax as well, so I'm fine with keeping its information on SG pages. It's still the same continuity family. But Quadwal absolutely is not. (I am not advocating any sort of parenthetical change on this article. It may be at the best possible place already. I am only providing information.){{#if:|{{{quote2}}}}}{{#if:|{{{2}}}{{#if:|, {{{3}}}|}}|}}

So, I'd like someone to tell me, just what does "Shattered Glass continuity family" refer to. Cos going by earlier in this discussion (and the Jim Sorenson one mentioned above), it means Negative Primax-related verses, not negative polarity everything. (Maybe I'm just overestimating the organizing abilities of you people, since this might only matter when we got Negative polarity stories from non-Primax stuff, and you all haven't been able to prepare for that.) Okay, this hurts, more than logically should (maybe like this)?. Help? Item42 03:06, 16 February 2010 (EST)

"That is a good point. The parenthetical is the franchise the were introduced and not their in-universe origin. Seriously, I'm thinking it should be 'Jim Sorenson (Animated)'."

Basically, we kind of realized the point was moot because since Sorenson's alter-ego showed up in an Animated book, he gets put under (Animated) because we organize by real world franchise of origin, not in-universe universe of origin.

As for the question of whether or not Negative Quadwal counts under the SG family, I think it does personally. But that's a debate to be held if we ever need to worry about seriously dealing with a new full SG continuity, I think. I wouldn't bother worrying about it until then. --Jeysie 03:24, 16 February 2010 (EST)

Beast Era

Oh My God. What Next?; Predacons wage their battles to destroy the evil forces of the Maximals?

The maximals were already scary oppressive, I rooted for the freedom fighters. Except for the crazy cannibal bug one. Spriteless 07:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Split

I think the comic should be split into its own article. It's only the first of multiple stories to be set in the SG universe, after all... plus, this lets us apply the standard comic page template to it for consistency. --M Sipher 02:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I came here just to say the same thing, for the same reasons. How 'bout we keep this page as an overview, and split the comic off to Shattered Glass (issue)? -- Repowers 03:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds prudent to me.--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I just split it into Shattered Glass (issue). But there are still several sections needed some works to be done. :) --TX55^TALK 03:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Move

So we split the comic out to Shattered Glass (issue), but where does this go? I'm thinking Shattered Glass (franchise). -Derik 21:58, 5 May 2009 (EDT)

Custom Styles

I was bored last night and did some poking at some custom styles for this page.

They are ugly, but I'm debatign whether they might be just the RIGHT amount of kitch-ugly for this.

Feedback appreciated. If consensus is to dump 'em, they're no loss. (And best when used sparingly, IMO.) (For a much better example of custom page-styles, see Void) -Derik 03:30, 27 May 2009 (EDT)

I appreciate the concept, but it's hard on the eyes. --Crockalley 18:52, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

:-( -Derik 18:54, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I think it's a cool start, but needs to be more comprehensive to work. Right now the link colors, featured character boxes, and note/quote/image/category/TOC boxes look really bizarre on the dark background. Those would need to be changed to mesh more visually. --Jeysie 20:06, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I think the entire endeavor is pointless. Put the page back to normal. --KilMichaelMcC 23:27, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I think the entire endeavor is AWESOME. Let's see if we can make this work. Seriously... What is there to lose? I like quirks like this... Makes it stand out from those other boring wikis. --Ascendron 23:32, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Derik, try this on for size:

body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content {background:#333 !important;color:#eee;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content a:link {color:#acf !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content a:visited {color:#cbc !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content table, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content #catlinks, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content .thumbinner, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content .thumbimage {background:#446 !important;border:2px #69c solid !important;color:#eee;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content h2 {color:#eee;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise #content .tt1_basicquote {background:#005 !important;border:4px outset #005;color:#eee !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters table {background:#333 !important;border:4px outset #333 !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters th, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters td {background:#300 !important;border:1px #300 solid;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters th+th, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters td+td {background:#303 !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters th+th+th, body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters td+td+td {background:#320 !important;}
body.page-Shattered_Glass_franchise div#featured_characters a:link {color:#cdf !important;}

You'll have to wrap the Featured Characters table in a <div id="featured_characters"></div> and preview to get it to work fully.
This gives an idea of what I had in mind, anyway. --Jeysie 11:15, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Derik, you know the people who AREN'T using "MonacoBook"? Did you give one second's thought to them in your Wikia-style rampage? - SanityOrMadness 11:57, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

No to both questions! -Derik 12:00, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Further, did you look at the action=history page at all? Change. This. Back. - SanityOrMadness 12:01, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes'm~ -Derik 12:10, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

I like the idea of giving this a different look I don't know what Derik's looked like but it would be pretty cool, if the colours where inverted. So black background white text, red links that lead to existing pages and blue ones that lead to non exiting ones. Dead Metal 04:38, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Negative universe

Is Shattered Glass a negative universe? - Starfield 12:00, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Probably! The latest club magazine finally gives SG a universal stream name. To get there, you have to "breach the dimensional barrier between the Positive Polarity Universes and Primax -408.24 Epsilon." (That's the date of BotCon 2008, of course.) It's apparently an area that even the TransTech haven't discovered. --ItsWalky 20:00, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

Shattered Glass has a negative number?

...awesome. -Derik 18:27, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Inherently awesome, because it stipulates that there's a positive multiverse and a negative multiverse, and thus quite possibly a number of evil mirror universes.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:37, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Well, we already know there's two, what with Shattered Expectations. It'd be Primax -408.01 Epsilon, I gather. --ItsWalky 19:08, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

So does that mean that Primus/Unicron/The Thirteen are singularities across both multiverses, then? --Jeysie 19:11, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

The Fallen is specifically stated to be a singularity even in the Shattered Glass universe, so apparently it still carries over.--Rosicrucian^Talk 19:12, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

They're all still technically parts of the same multiverse, just different halves of it. --ItsWalky 19:18, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Can I ask the context in which the SG-verse was identified with a Universal Stream ID? Who said it?

The SG-verse has some non-Primax characters in it, which is why I ask. -Derik 19:21, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Aquarius's profile, which should be a neutral voice. --ItsWalky 19:24, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Thanks! I didn't really expect the stream-ID to be revealed as a case of an unreliable narrator... but since SG has already lampshaded the fact is has non-G1 characters, I figured it was worth checking. -Derik 19:28, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Eh, Primax has a Hot Shot now, so there are some bleedings over.--ItsWalky 19:29, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Own Toy page

As the idea was brought up on Category talk:Shattered Glass characters I decided to start work on one it's still in my sandbox and will stay there till it's up to standard. User:Dead Metal/DMsscrapheap Please take a look and point out mistakes or ideas to improve it. Dead Metal 06:34, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Good start, although I think it might be worthwhile to actually add in what the repurposed toys are on the page itself, rather than just pointing people at the individual pages. *will have to sift through the list to offer more suggestions* --Jeysie 08:35, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

I think these are some of the missing Decepticons:

• Official:
  • Razorclaw - Classics Overbite
• Repurposed:
  • Bug Bite - BotCon 2007 Bug Bite
  • Buzzsaw - G1 Buzzsaw
  • Clench - G1 Clench
  • Crasher - '07 Movie Fracture
  • Darkwind - Robot Masters Gigant Bomb
  • Dreadwind - Robot Masters Smokesniper
  • Dirge - BotCon 2007 Dirge & Descent into Evil Dirge
  • Frenzy - G1 Frenzy
  • Goryu - Masterpiece Grimlock & Victory Gōryū
  • Laserbeak - G1 Laserbeak
  • Rumble - G1 Rumble
  • Slugfest - G1 Slugfest
  • Quake - G1 Quake

Aaaand Autobots:

• Official:
  • Goldbug - Cybertron Hot Shot
  • Nightclash - Combined Thunderclash and Nightbeat
• Repurposed:
  • Afterburner - G1 Afterburner
  • Blaster - G1 Blaster
  • Cliffjumper - Classics Cliffjumper
  • Computron - G1 Computron
  • Crosshairs - '07 Movie Warpath
  • Downshift - G1 Downshift
  • Drench - G2 Drench
  • Dropshot - Armada Dropshot (unreleased)
  • Lightspeed - G1 Lightspeed
  • Ratchet - Energon Roadblock
  • Nosecone - G1 Nosecone
  • Rook - Universe Rook
  • Scattorshot - G1 Scattershot
  • Soundwave - Universe Ironhide as Earth mode
  • Steeljaw - G1 Steeljaw
  • Strafe - G1 Strafe
  • Wheeljack - Energon Downshift

--Jeysie 10:10, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Nearly all of those "repurposed" toys you list are NOT repurposed. They are (potential) redecoes. Repurposing means using a toy, basically unaltered, to represent a different character than was intended. (And Crasher is not Movie Crasher. She's white-deco original Crasher.) --ItsWalky 10:25, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Ah. Well, we can split into separate repurpose/redecoes anyway, so no big deal.

And, oh? Hrm. I must have read that thought somewhere else and mistakenly thought I saw it on the wiki. Sorry. :> --Jeysie 14:04, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

So what do you think of the article now? I'm not quite happy with the intro. Dead Metal 15:01, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Well I started it now Shattered Glass (toyline) Dead Metal 15:56, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Franchise Navigation

Now that we're going this far, we ought to go whole hog. That means split the fiction off into its own page (or pages) and do up a full franchise navigation template. Ideally, this page's format should mirror any other franchise's.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:29, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Um... *quickly erases her own now redundant section on the matter* I agree with this thought, and already wrote up some nav template code. But what should we use for the parenthetical? Shattered Glass (fiction)? Shattered Glass (stories)? --Jeysie 16:35, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

The best example I can probably hold up would be maybe Kiss Players? Given that the story there is told through a mix of comics, radio plays, and other assorted sources.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:37, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Well, that still is split between the radio drama and the manga. I more meant... should we have the comics and the text stories separate, or just one general page of stories, and what should we label the page(s)? And should we list the Shattered Glass issue as a separate nav item? --Jeysie 16:40, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

Since there's multiple text stories, and now (finally!) multiple comics, they can easily each get their own pages. The BotCon issue can be linked to from the comics page (as well as probably an in-context link in the franchise page to mention the comic that kicked it all off).--Rosicrucian^Talk 17:01, 11 July 2009 (EDT)

I don't see the point of separating the comics and text stories. With the sole exception of Expectations, they're all telling a single unified story, and neither category is unmanageably long. It seems far preferable to have them all on a single page: "Shattered Glass (fiction)", would be my take. I mean, with the split, we have to put Desert Heat and Eye in the Sky on different pages. That's kinda ludicrous, since they're the same story. -- Repowers 02:11, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Um why is this part of the Generation 1 continuity family? Is there something I missed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dead Metal (talk • contribs){{#if:02:17, 12 July 2009| 02:17, 12 July 2009|}}.

It's part of the "Primax" universal stream, so that technically puts it in G1 despite the Armada doubles, I think.

And, honestly, my personal vote would also be for Shattered Glass (fiction) as well, rather than separating the comics and text stories. --Jeysie 02:36, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Another call for input. Anyone seriously opposed to a combined fiction page?

In its additional defense, I'd point out that we traditionally separate fiction by media because that's how the fiction itself is separated. The story of the Marvel Comics universe was (originally, anyhow) told entirely within the confines of the Marvel Comics. With SG, however, we have a single story being told across 2-3 different media. Clarity demands a single page, IMO. -- Repowers 18:45, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm pretty much with Rob on this one. It's all one single timeline, and splitting it out by medium is counterintuitive simply for the sake of pedantry. --M Sipher 18:58, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

One thing I have been pondering... if we do combine it, should we leave it in the current list format, or should we treat the comics and text stories as if they were all "issues" in a single "miniseries", stick the list in one of our issue boxes, and just have the one set of Overview and Creative Team(s) sections? --Jeysie 03:51, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

OK, I just tried doing a proper consolidated fiction write-up at Shattered Glass (fiction). Feel free to make any necessary hacks to it, including if anyone can figure out how to pare down the Shattered Glass Overview section a bit...

I should note that I left out Reunification Part 3's summary on purpose, since I think it's supposed to take place after Blitzwing Bop.--Jeysie 10:28, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

New Disambiguation

On the Sideways (RID) talk page there's been discussion of possibly moving all of the (Shattered Glass) pages to (SG) instead. Figured this was a more appropriate spot to continue the matter. --Jeysie 13:00, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Why don't we move all the (Animated) pages to (A) while we're at it? [endsarcasm] ---Blackout- 13:14, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Because we also have (Armada). That's why. There is no other S____G____ franchise, however. Likely there never will be! And Shattered Glass is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY longer than either "Animated" or "Armada." Generally, dude, if you're going to use sarcasm, don't use it to make a doofus of yourself. --ItsWalky 13:24, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

And for the love of God, please start properly indenting your posts to the right so they flow like a proper discussion. --ItsWalky 13:25, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

I agree with the new disambiguation: since Kiss Players is now (KP), I can't think of another franchise that's actually possible to abbreviate that doesn't have an abbreviated disambiguation. -Mazenoise 13:27, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

For reasons I went into on the Sideways talk page, I also agree with the proposal. --Jimsorenson 13:29, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

So long as the name of the first comic is settled on as the name of the whole continuity, than yes. ("The Dessert Heat" calls it a "Shattered Reality.") - Starfield 14:17, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

A fictional reference like that wouldn't take precedence. After all, nowhere in fiction is Armada really called Armada.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:19, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Also, parentheticals are by FRANCHISE of origin, not continuity. Since "Shattered Glass" is the logo on the toys and comics, that's what we go by. - Jackpot 12:43, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

On the one hand, I agree that (SG) fits with our abbreviation schema a lot better (not to mention it's a lot easier to type...) On the other hand, I'm wondering if it's really a big enough deal to be worth the logistics of having to move 120+ pages and change their links. --Jeysie 14:56, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

I question changing to (SG) because I'm reminded of Walky starting with (HH) for Henkei Hot Rod after his release, which lead to KilMichaelMcC bringing it up on the talk page that eventually resulted in [[Hot Rod (Henkei!)]]. --Lonegamer78 15:32, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Well, we do have a precedence that stuff with two words gets abbreviated. Everything else we spell out completely is just one word. Henkei! at least is one word repeated, so we can still get away with the one word (Henkei!) instead of having to type out (Henkei! Henkei!). Every non-Shattered disambiguation with two or more words that I know of is some special individual case, rather than a disambiguation for an entire franchise. --Jeysie 15:52, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Agreed. Besides, that's what this conversation is for. "(HH)" was a decision made without discussion, so nobody had had a chance to bring up counterpoints. But after as much talk as we've had about this one, I don't think there's any as-yet-unmentioned alternative to either "(Shattered Glass)" or "(SG)". And as for the work of changing all the titles, well, like Jim said on the other page, better to make the change at 100 articles than 200. Given how the population of this universe is expanding, if we're going to change it, let's do it NOW.

(Oh, and, yeah, as I said on the other page, I vote for "(SG)".)

- Jackpot 12:43, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

I honestly don't understand the impulse to change (Shattered Glass) to (SG). "It ain't broke, but let's fix it anyway!" --KilMichaelMcC 16:11, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

It's just kind of unwieldy for no reason. Parentheticals should be, as a rule, as short as possible. And maybe Derik's bot could even do the work for us. - Jackpot 12:31, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

I oppose this move. -Derik 12:50, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

If the community votes in favor of the move, can your bot do the job? - Jackpot 13:04, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Yes. If we manage to move the pages once. (So there's no 'chains'.) -Derik 13:39, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

"SG" is a type of specialized argot that makes the pages less accessible to newbies, and because there's an excellent chance we'll get a non-G1 "Shattered" universe at some point; At which point these articles would move to "(Shattered G1)," and he doesn't want to move them twice. -Derik 11:03, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

• User:Derik also re-iterates an objection he had when the (Shattered Glass) disambiguation was first chosen-- it's being applied to characters who appeared exclusively in "Shattered Expectations." "(Shattered)" would be more appropriate, more informative, more in keeping with our 1-word disambigs, cover all continuities within the Negative Primax "Family" and synch with The Desert Heat!'s narration calling it a "Shattered Reality." Shattered Glass was always a crappy name for this franchise, and abrev. it doesn't fix the fundamental problems-- it just embeds them behind another layer of obfuscation.

Well, "Shattered Glass" AFAIK is the official name for the franchise now (and thus the continuity and continuity family), crappy or not. And we've always considered "Shattered Expectations" to fall under the SG continuity family - we put SE info on the SG character pages when a character's been in both, after all, so applying the (Shattered Glass) modifier to SE-only characters is consistent. I'm opposed to the move, but I'm not opposed to (SG) if the majority votes to move. --Jeysie 13:58, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Established where? -Derik 14:03, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Like every other franchise, the logo on the packaging and media determines the name. It's that simple. And disambigs are by franchise, not continuity or continuity-family or series or anything else. Also, I disagree that the chance of new Shattered universes popping up is "excellent"; we've seen more than enough UT references (and now, in the latest comic, even an Animated reference) to make me think that the one Shattered universe is all we're getting for the foreseeable future. - Jackpot 14:24, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

...I don't remember seeing anything that grabbed me as being an Animated ref while reading any part of the comic... --Jeysie 14:47, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

It's the "ad" that's playing during Rook's "Around Cybertron" broadcast on the back cover. And, just to clarify, I'm talking about the very latest comic, which I got in the mail yesterday. - Jackpot 15:10, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Ah. I dunno, there's a Cybertron Elite Guard in SG too now, so I didn't think too much of it. Although he is some kind of separate Bee, since SG Goldbug used to be Bee... --Jeysie 15:18, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

All I'm making of it is that it's an Animated reference in SG. Being an advertisement within the fiction, I don't know if SG-Elite-Guard-Bumblebee is supposed to be a "real" character or not, but he's there nonetheless, and I think he counts as evidence that our current crop of creators is happy with just a single Shattered universe that can touch on non-G1 stuff now and again. - Jackpot 15:35, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Well, it's a matter of, just because the cartoonist does a side comic with a short ref doesn't mean Animated characters will necessarily show up in any of the main stories, as opposed to the concept of any formal fiction being a full-on SG Animated verse.

And what confused me at first is that, Reunification is the comic, while Around Cybertron is a completely separate thing in the overall magazine they're both in. So I was like, "Wait, there was an Animated ref in Reunification? Buh?" Because that's not the case. :> --Jeysie 16:58, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Ah, you're right; I should've linked to THIS article-to-be instead of the other one (I didn't realize that there the story-articles were separate from the issue-articles). Heh, and here I was trying to be helpfully clear on what I was talking about... ah well. - Jackpot 17:35, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

S'OK, I get what you meant now. Don't worry about it. :) And, quickie question, do we wait a month to write up the TFCC mag outlines too? --Jeysie 17:39, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Like every other franchise, the logo on the packaging and media determines the name.

Which makes Shattered Glass Timelines. The box set was TF: Timelines, and the most recent story (Eye in the SKy) was "Transformers Timelines Presents."

(It's not my fault you're quoting a silly definition that's clearly wrong on its face.)

Eye in the Sky doesn't even have "Shattered Glass" anywhere on the cover as an imprint or anything.

I also don't feel that removing my substantive complaint from my vote below and ghettoizing it up top "for the reasons described above" in appropriate. Both because I clearly wanted those comments visible in the vote, to outline why Iw as objection, and because your 'reasons described above' are so completely and objectively incorrect. I feel ill-served by this move on pretty much every level. -Derik 18:22, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

All of my stories say "A Transformers: Shattered Glass" story on them. And there's an official Shattered Glass logo. And the official site calls it Shattered Glass. And we cheerfully created a Timelines is not a continuity family article, and Shattered Glass is definitely a continuity family as well as a franchise and a continuity. So, I'm not sure how much more official you want things. --Jeysie 18:31, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

The SG stuff is under two franchises, Timelines and Shattered Glass. We choose the latter for classification because the former is basically meaningless, as Jeysie pointed out. Also as Jeysie says, Fub Pub has been good about putting the SG label somewhere on their stories, but even if they slipped up here or there, it wouldn't be a purposeful enough omission to say the SG franchise suddenly doesn't apply.

And I'm sorry I've made you feel ill-served by moving your explanation above the vote-tally, but I think both the discussion itself and its readers would be tremendously ill-served by having THIS ENTIRE THREAD jammed in the middle of the tally. It would especially ill-serve Jeysie's intent to be "semi-organized." Also I have no idea how moving your reasons up on the page somehow makes them "completely and objectively incorrect."

Edit: Wait, maybe I do understand what you mean. I don't think I was clear enough in my wording of the edit I made to your vote. I've changed it.

- Jackpot 18:54, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Yes, it would be the "logo on the packaging and media" thing. I'm tired of hearing round N+1 of "Toyline dominates!" over at "Sideways (RiD)" or whatever twitch-inducing mass disambig-moves moves Interrobang is working on this week.

When it comes to G1, we disambig by continuity family, not franchise. Alternators/BT/Timelines/Universe... are all part of the Generation 1 continuity family. We arrived at a system of using individual franchises for the UT characters because literally 90% of the names were re-used multiple times in the course of the Unicron trilogy. It was actually easier that way.

As increasing pressure is put on the G1 continuity family (in the form of more name overlap within it) we're kicking characters down to franchises within that-- usually newer characters getting the crap disambigs like (Timelines) simply because there isn't really anything else you can call the guys from the original G1. (One of the perils of having a continuity family and a franchise with the same name.)

It's really not that complicated. I don't see why people have to keep making it more complicated than it is.

And yeah, I get tetchy when you say 'we disambig by the logo on the packing or media', because that's wrong. And people then move articles based on that false understanding, creating a metric fucktonne of confusion. -Derik 19:20, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

And Shattered Glass is a continuity and a continuity family as well as a franchise, so it's just as valid a name in that case. So, again, your point? "Shattered Glass" is the officially-used name, no matter how much it offends your personal sensibilities.

The only term that ever gets any other use is "Shatteredverse", and there are wiki folks who would froth at the mouth if we suggested using that. "Shattered" as a single-word term has never been used anywhere official that I know of, period. --Jeysie 19:28, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Yes yes, I was discussing disambig-naming in the abstract, not Shattered Glass in specific. (I just hate that the name basically consigns Shattered Expectations to the ashbin of history.) -Derik 19:34, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

I don't know where you're getting the notion that we disambig by family. Going by the style guide, we see "the first choice should always be the entity's franchise of origin," follwed by a link to this list, which includes only a single family, UT, and discourages its use. Going by practical example, you've already said that G1 is at best a haphazard case because of its internal overlap, and none of UT is disambiguated that way for the same reason... and neither is the Movie family, apparently. What's left? RID, the family that has the same name as its one franchise? I mean, honestly, I really wish we COULD disambig by family, since that's how our articles are actually written. But it's just not feasible. You'd get bizarrities like "Blackarachnia (G1)" and "Jolt (G1)", plus Afterburner (G1) would have to be moved to "Afterburner (Autobot)" or something because "Afterburner (G2)" is also in the G1 continuity family. Do you see the issue here? Where is the disambig-by-family theory supported? - Jackpot 21:14, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, the whole reason I made the below section is because everyone's actual stance was getting lost in the discussion, so I figured we needed to be clearer to get an actual consensus. By sticking your argument smack in the middle of the vote tally instead of up here where the discussion bit is, you were threatening to go and muck things up all over again, which is... not appreciated. --Jeysie 19:13, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Maybe we should be semi-organized about this? --Jeysie 13:08, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

• Jeysie votes (SG) if we move pages, but opposes the move in general.
• Jackpot votes (SG) and will personally move pages if the bot can't do it.
• Jimsorenson votes (SG) and will help with the move.
• User:Derik opposes the change Edit by User:Jackpot: Derik's reasons have been moved up on the page so the discussion does not interrupt the vote-tally.
• Metal Gear NOIZE votes SG, it's a more convienient disambiguation, less to type and with better consideration for those with difficulty spelling the full name of the franchise.
• Semysane votes (SG)
• User:ItsWalky has wanted them to be at {SG) for like forever. --ItsWalky 15:06, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:Mazenoise votes for (SG) because of what I said in the above discussion. -Mazenoise 15:49, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:repowers will DESTROY YOU ALL!!!! ....and also, votes for (SG). -- Repowers 17:48, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:Chris McFeely is startlingly indifferent to the whole thing, but if it means he gets to hang around with the cool kids, he might as well vote for (SG). - Chris McFeely 17:58, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:Interrobang likes saying "Es Gee". —Interrobang 18:51, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:Starfield jumps on the (SG) bandwagon. - Starfield 18:57, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:Hooper_X votes for "(Shattered)", just 'cause. - Hooper_X 19:15, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:FortMax ignores your stupid rules and fills in (SG with a #3 pencil. --FortMax 19:33, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
• User:KilMichaelMcC votes to keep (Shattered Glass) because he see no reason to change it. --KilMichaelMcC 01:55, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Okay, it looks like that's a clear decision, so this is what I'm thinking;

• Deceptitran works by taking a snapshot of all the pages that link to a page and then editing them in sequence over several hours. So if "Sunstreaker (Shattered Glass)" points to "Afterburner (Shattered Glass)," when you move it to Afterburner (SG), Deceptitran will go and edit the "Sunstreaker (Shattered Glass)" article.
• But if the "Sunstreaker (Shattered Glass)" article is moved to "Sunstreaker (SG)" in the interim, when Deceptitran goes to edit the "Sunstreaker (Shattered Glass)" article, all it will find is #redirect[Sunstreaker (SG)] (And that's assuming that the redirect didn't get deleted.) So the link doesn't get fixed.
• The 'Snapshot' system is actually far preferable to any sort of 'live' system. You can delete items from the 'fix links on these pages' list, which makes it very good for splitting pages, plus it's more downtime-resistant, places less load on the TFWiki servers etc. But this is one situation where it's a bit of a headache.

Either we have to create (SG) redirects for all the pages, change the links then move them once all the links are changed... or we have to move them all then fix the links. Or we can move them in smaller chunks, fixing the links as we go. The last option is the least headache, but it also is the most likely to break; if some yaboo sees "Oh, we're moving Shattered Glass" pages, and pitches in by moving others, it will cause the linkfix to break.

Basically I'm suggesting that all of the pages be moves en masse, then Deceptitran will go in and fix the hundreds (possibly thousands?) of inter-page links. I've rigged Deceptitran so that it will function at ~1,200% it's normal speed (~1 edit performed every 5 seconds) which means it can plow through these links in relatively little time. (I'm currently using it to empty out the ~800 item job queue we racked up last night when I added all the page moves from the last 2 weeks.)

So if we intend to do this move, I recommend that tonight we simply move all the pages (by hand, yes.) and then I queue them up with Deceptitran.

(Note to self: Deceptitran does not fix links within {{disambig2}} tags. Usually this is something users will do themselves when moving a page. May be worth fixing since it'll probably affect 20-30 pages in this instance.) -Derik 13:14, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm willing to go through and see what Disambig2 pages need fixing. I agree that moving everything and then fixing links is the best way to go. No moving pages via the bot, then? Man, this is going to clog up Recent Changes something terrible, unless someone's willing to get tagged as a bot temporarily... --Jeysie 13:45, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Addendum: Can you add "Ark (Shattered Glass)" and "Nemesis (Shattered Glass)" manually to the bot's link altering list? Those are redlinked articles that currently have a crapton of linkage to them. (Every other SG article that doesn't exist yet that I know of has few enough incoming links that I'll just handle them manually.) --Jeysie 13:55, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Deceptitran is just a user. You can log in as him. (Well, I can. I probably shouldn't give out the 'able to make invisible edits' password.) -Derik 18:10, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Well, yes, I know the bot is technically just a user. It was more the "probably not a good idea to give out the 'always able to make invisible edits' password" thing. --Jeysie 18:36, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Okay, I just moved ~120 pages in 12 minutes, by hand. (And yes, there was scripting involved to make it go that fast.)

That's all the charcters disambig'd with "(Shattered Glass)."

Is there anything else that needs to be moved before I queue up the changes? -Derik 19:58, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Ah, crud, you asked while I was napping, or I would have answered sooner. >.< You did miss a few pages... everything in the Mayhem Suppression Squad category, and a few stray pages in the main Shattered Glass category. --Jeysie 21:10, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

~160 pages have been moved, creating 1439 links to 104 pages that need changing.

I'm putting Deceptitran in fast mode, which means... this should be done in about 2 hours.

(The poor TFWiki server. I've just subjected it to hundreds of moves, further hundreds of computationally-intensive 'what-links-here' queries, and now I'm going to be throwing thousands of minor edits at it literally as fast as the 'bot can post them.) -Derik 20:08, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

*cough* I'm going to claim that the recent server hicup was unrelated to the 'bot hammering it with edits. Nonetheless...

*turns it down to 30%* -Derik 20:48, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

There's still a couple of stray links, and the SG Pinpointer page is totally out of whack.

Thank God for Deceptitran. ---Blackout- 02:14, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

Hey! Deleting the (Shattered Glass) redirects causes problems when there are links from outside the Wiki pointing to them. Example --abates 03:08, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, we can't delete the main article redirects, only the talk page ones. Not to mention that, looking at what happened recently, we don't need people mistakenly trying to recreate the moved articles in the old spots. --Jeysie 03:22, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

Also, does that mean the link fixes are all done? Because we need to move those remaining pages I mentioned then, if so. --Jeysie 03:26, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

Go for it. I'll check the move log tomorrow and queue up the link fixes for 'em. -Derik 05:13, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

OK, they're moved. We still need those non-talk-page redirects undeleted, though. --Jeysie 06:34, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

But doing that will botht he (Shattered Glass) and (SG) disambigs to show up in the search box, pushing real search results down. -Derik 15:06, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

I think maintaining much-needed incoming link juice is much more important than search box issues. Especially since our Shattered Glass section is way, way more complete than Wikia's at this point, so anything that ups our chances of beating them out in results is a good thing. If there's any way to manually keep out the unneeded redirects, go for it, but deleting the (Shattered Glass) redirects is bad overall in this particular case.

(Don't look at me... I knew awkward stuff like this that outweighs the benefits would crop up, which is why I voted against the move.) --Jeysie 15:15, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

Normally I'd be on the side of clearing the deadwood out of the search-box, but in this case I think uninformed article-recreation is a genuine danger. I say we hold off for a while until we can more safely assume that everyone is hip to the (SG). By the way, thank you to both Derik and Jeysie for being good sports and putting the effort into the changeover despite your own misgivings about it. (Especially Derik, given how hard you argued against it.) It's definitely appreciated. - Jackpot 15:24, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

I am determined, for various reasons, to make our SG section all shiny and complete. Which means dealing with this sort of stuff when it crops up. --Jeysie 15:55, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

So, any chance of undeleting the (Shattered Glass) redirects? Just as I was afraid of, it's negatively affected the Google ranking for the articles. --Jeysie 18:10, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

Micromasters

Now I've noticed that all the SG Micromasters and Targetmasters are linked to Micromasters and Targetmasters respectively. Now I don't really think this should be the way to go, I think they should get their own pages like "Micromaster (SG)" and "Targetmaster (SG)". The Targetmasters at least seem to justify that as they mostly also turn into vehicles and I'm not too sure on this but don't they all have a completely different origin to the traditional Micromasters and Targetmasters? Dead Metal 13:40, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

If you want to get technical, the various non-SG Micromasters and Targetmasters (and Head- and Powermasters, for that matter) on the existing pages mostly have differing origins and setups too. I'm not opposed to making up separate pages, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

Especially since we'd need to worry about far more pages than that. I made up a starter list of the various SG factions because Rosicrucian thought it might be an interesting idea. As you can see, some of them have separate SG pages, and some don't. --Jeysie 17:05, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

Mmm that's a lot of factions, how about just a SG Micromaster page seeing as the Targetmasters are different kind of Micros, and another sandbox for me, sigh. Dead Metal 15:51, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

"A different colour and shape"

"There already have been times when the insigna has been changed to either a different colour or a different shape. However there hasn't been a confirmed sighting of a different colour and shape."

I'm not sure what it's going on about--it's definitely awkward and needs revising. If it's saying what I think it's saying (that guys have been drawn with red 'Con or purple 'Bot symbols before, but this is the first time it's been confirmed to "really" be like that in-fiction instead of just a mistake), then it's also flat-out wrong, as Berserker Sixwing has purple Autobot symbols. --Andrusi 14:00, 30 June 2010 (EDT)

After apparently nobody being able to come up with an answer for nearly six months, I'm just deleting it. --Andrusi 14:44, 21 December 2010 (EST)